# Damn airlines. How the HELL do they get away with this shit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610 "2007-09-18T15:10:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/81 "2007-09-22T16:08:40Z")
[QUOTE=robby] When you check in online, you can actually print out your boarding passes. Later, when you arrive at the airport to check your luggage, they will note that you are already checked in. [/QUOTE] Yes, this works great when it is possible. If I’ve been away from a computer all day or just booked that flight as I’m returning the rental car, it can’t help. ---
**Author:** ![quilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/839c29/32.png) [@quilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quilter)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/82 "2007-09-22T17:35:31Z")
[QUOTE=Waverly] There is NO WAY to get guarantee you will get out of Islip or San Jose, as just two examples, on Southwest without spending hours in the _combined_ ques for ticketing, security, and boarding. I _was_ charged the change fee and refused the chance to stand by. [/QUOTE] Funny that you chose ISP and SJC as examples. My experiences have been very different than yours. Note: I’m not trying to change your mind, just attempting to explain why Southwest works for me. A couple of years ago, my mother was ill and I (who live on Long Island) flew just about every other week to see Mom (who lived in San Jose). I had nothing but help from Southwest folks – including arriving at SJC in time to hear that a blizzard was moving up the east coast and airports were beginning to close. I talked to a counter person who – even though ISP was still open – suggested that I change flights. I ended up flying from San Jose-\>San Diego-\>Nashville-\>Islip. I got home exactly one hour before the airport closed. That was a memorable flight (especially making the huge divide-by sign across the US), but only one incident in about two-years’ worth of ISP-SJC trips. I’ve called the night before I wanted to fly and have been surprised to discover that I could use free flight rewards the very next day. I’ve never been charged a change fee, although I’ve been charged the difference in the price of tickets. When I’ve canceled flights – including cheapo internet special fares – the money isn’t lost. Southwest hangs on to it, and it’s there the next time I book a flight. Incidentally, Southwest is changing their boarding procedure even as we type. From [http://www.southwest.com/help/boardingschool/faq.html](http://www.southwest.com/help/boardingschool/faq.html) > [@](#): > > Q: How does the new boarding process work? > A: Customers will be placed into the A, B, or C boarding groups based on the time of check-in. In addition, Customers will now be assigned a position within that group (For example: A35). This unique combination represents a reserved spot in the boarding group at the gate. When your boarding group is called, you can find your designated place in line and board the aircraft. Yes, you still have to check-in on-line 24 hours in advance to get an A boarding pass – but no more queues at the boarding gate. ---
**Author:** ![InkBlot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5e925/32.png) [@InkBlot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InkBlot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2007, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/83 "2007-09-23T05:57:06Z")
I’m drawn to airline threads (which shall be obvious in a second), but this has turned out more interesting than expected. Anyway, I wanted to pop in with some useful information if I can, based on my experience. For full disclosure, I work for Southwest Airlines but **do not speak for Southwest Airlines**. So, I’ll tackle any questions one might have for an airline type, but I speak only for myself. Anyway, some points from reading this thread so far. [ul] [li]Orbitz is a joint venture between five airlines, American, Continental, Delta, Northwest and United.[/li][li]DoT rankings of customer complaints are per 100,000 passengers (to balance the rankings out)[/li][li]I understand last year, Southwest carried more people domestically than any other airline.[/li][li]SWA does fly Denver - Pittsburgh, but only with a stopover in MDW (according to [Southwest.com](http://Southwest.com))[/li][/ul] As to Waverly’s concerns, it looks like others have already mentioned it: SWA [does not charge change fees](http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/no_change_fees.html), just the difference in fares. Also, the “selectee” boarding (the extra searching of bags) is a [TSA thing](http://www.tsa.gov/research/privacy/faqs.shtm), which happens to you either randomly, or by TSA choice. Not the airlines. On the random selection, no one is exempt…I even was once, flying on a employee pass. I’m glad I pack light. 🙂 Anyway, I’m sorry if we haven’t made a good impression on you, and I hope if we ever get another chance we do better. InkBlot ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2007, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/84 "2007-09-23T10:00:12Z")
[QUOTE=InkBlot] As to Waverly’s concerns, it looks like others have already mentioned it: SWA [does not charge change fees](http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/no_change_fees.html), just the difference in fares. Also, the “selectee” boarding (the extra searching of bags) is a [TSA thing](http://www.tsa.gov/research/privacy/faqs.shtm), which happens to you either randomly, or by TSA choice. [/QUOTE] How can you work for Southwest and not know about their checkboard boarding passes? The passenger in this link seems to be a bit of a tool, but note it is the Southwest ticket agent who decides to print a checkerboard, and note that it means extra screening. > **[Gilmore v. Ashcroft, et al - Complaint for Injunctive and Declaratory Relief](https://cryptome.org/gilmore-v-usa-cid.htm)** Why would you think the TSA has anything to do with Southwest’s boarding passes or their own unique flag? Another cite: > **[Secondary Security Screening Selection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_Security_Screening_Selection)** > > Secondary Security Screening Selection or Secondary Security Screening Selectee (SSSS) is an airport security measure in the United States which selects passengers for additional inspection. People from certain countries are subject to it by default. The passengers may be known as Selectee, Automatic Selectee or the Selectee list. The size and contents of the list fluctuates and is a secret, although the Transportation Security Administration has stated there are tens of thousands of names The... From the second cite, it’s clear that the _criteria_ may belong to the TSA, but deciding who meets it and what to do about seems to be up to the airline. Secondary screening is also something that usually happens at the security checkpoint. The decision to do it again, at boarding, is also Southwest’s. They might have stopped this practice though since I’ve been boycotting them. I’m not sure what to say about the change fee. A google search turns up lots of ‘no fee’ press, and also quite a few people complaining about being charged a change fee above the difference in ticket price. I’d chalk it up to more than a few incompetent employees, but that is just a guess. Oh, and I appreciate that you like your company. That’s good to see. But no, I’ll never fly Southwest again. ---
**Author:** ![InkBlot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5e925/32.png) [@InkBlot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InkBlot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/85 "2007-09-23T16:02:54Z")
[QUOTE=Waverly] How can you work for Southwest and not know about their checkboard boarding passes? The passenger in this link seems to be a bit of a tool, but note it is the Southwest ticket agent who decides to print a checkerboard, and note that it means extra screening. > **[Gilmore v. Ashcroft, et al - Complaint for Injunctive and Declaratory Relief](https://cryptome.org/gilmore-v-usa-cid.htm)** Why would you think the TSA has anything to do with Southwest’s boarding passes or their own unique flag? Another cite: > **[Secondary Security Screening Selection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_Security_Screening_Selection)** > > Secondary Security Screening Selection or Secondary Security Screening Selectee (SSSS) is an airport security measure in the United States which selects passengers for additional inspection. People from certain countries are subject to it by default. The passengers may be known as Selectee, Automatic Selectee or the Selectee list. The size and contents of the list fluctuates and is a secret, although the Transportation Security Administration has stated there are tens of thousands of names The... From the second cite, it’s clear that the _criteria_ may belong to the TSA, but deciding who meets it and what to do about seems to be up to the airline. Secondary screening is also something that usually happens at the security checkpoint. The decision to do it again, at boarding, is also Southwest’s. They might have stopped this practice though since I’ve been boycotting them. [/QUOTE] Well, if you’d read my whole comments, I’ve been the recipient of a checkerboard pass before. I know what they are, and I know we don’t have the ability to mark someone because we think they’re a tool, rude, or any other reason. It’s either due to TSA watchlists or random. Your court case you link to, by the way, was dismissed by the 9th District Court, appealed to the Supreme Court and denied. Mind you, that person’s overriding issue was the constitutionality of “watchlists”, so even in the dismissals SWA was hardly mentioned. I don’t feel the Wikipedia site contradicts me either. It does mention criteria which may make you more likely to be selected, and I honestly can’t tell you if they’re right or not. Because if they are, then it’s still a randomized selection based on probabilities, but there are no people looking over passenger lists manually pressing buttons to put checkerboards on your ticket. Personally, my suspicion is the TSA and various airlines knew just how unpopular selectee screening would be, and designed a system to keep the decision making process with the TSA so the airlines could try and avoid the backlash. InkBlot ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2007, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/86 "2007-09-23T17:44:42Z")
[QUOTE=InkBlot] (snip)Personally, my suspicion is the TSA and various airlines knew just how unpopular selectee screening would be, and designed a system to keep the decision making process with the TSA so the airlines could try and avoid the backlash. InkBlot [/QUOTE] I’m a 100,000 mile a year flyer, and have been one for years, and doing it the hard way with mainly domestic segments with the occasional trip to Europe or Asia. I have not been randomly selected for search in better than five years. I don’t know what the “random” selection process entails, but there is nothing random about it. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/87 "2007-09-23T19:15:58Z")
[QUOTE=Bill Door] I’m a 100,000 mile a year flyer, and have been one for years, and doing it the hard way with mainly domestic segments with the occasional trip to Europe or Asia. I have not been randomly selected for search in better than five years. I don’t know what the “random” selection process entails, but there is nothing random about it. [/QUOTE] So how many times would you have to have been selected in order to prove that the selection process really is random? Please show your work. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/88 "2007-09-23T20:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=MsWhatsit] So how many times would you have to have been selected in order to prove that the selection process really is random? Please show your work. [/QUOTE] I would have to be selected more than zero times in the last two hundred and fifty flights. TSA refuses to say how many people are randomly selected for supplemental screening, but the numbers I have seen say it is 10 to 15 percent. Assume the lower number, 10%. That means the null hypothesis, that I escape screening, is 90%, pretty good odds. Of course, to miss screening twice the odds drop to 81%, three times they drop to 72.9%. To escape screening two hundred and fifty consecutive flights has a probability of 0.000000000364%. That’s one chance in 275 billion. It might could happen, but the smart money says no. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/89 "2007-09-23T21:21:15Z")
[QUOTE=Bill Door] I’m a 100,000 mile a year flyer, and have been one for years, and doing it the hard way with mainly domestic segments with the occasional trip to Europe or Asia. I have not been randomly selected for search in better than five years. I don’t know what the “random” selection process entails, but there is nothing random about it. [/QUOTE] I have heard from an airline employee that your frequent flier number allows the system to recognize you reducing your chance of the dreaded SSSSS boarding pass. The reasoning is that after 650,000 miles on one airline, I am probably not a super high security risk. I have had exactly 1 SSSSS boarding pass since 2001 ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/90 "2007-09-24T17:35:45Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] Yes, but the point is we didn’t misunderstand anything. They changed it to a layover AFTER we purchased it. [/QUOTE] If the nonstop is cancelled, and that’s why they changed it, then there’s obviously nothing you can do. If the nonstop still exists, and your flights were changed because they changed the schedule, then call them up and demand that they put you back on the nonstop. They should do it at no charge, since it was their schedule change that knocked you off the nonstop. After an airline’s schedule change, you generally get one chance to get a free schedule change of your own choosing if you can convince the airline that the new schedule they put you on is not good for you (which shouldn’t be too hard). (Within reason – travel dates and origin/destination have to be the same.) If the first agent you call won’t do this, then keep calling back until you find one who will. Ed ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/91 "2007-09-24T18:08:29Z")
[QUOTE=denquixote] a direct flight is one which stops but you don’t change planes, a non-stop is just what it says, a connecting flight requires a change of planes. [/QUOTE] Nowadays a lot of airlines have “fake” direct flights, which look like direct flights but which are really connecting flights. For example, UA has a flight 936 from San Francisco to Zurich with 1 stop. In fact that flight requires a connection in Washington. The only way to be sure you don’t have to get off the plane is to book a nonstop. Ed ---
**Author:** ![GrizzRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ba0ec/32.png) [@GrizzRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrizzRich)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/92 "2007-09-26T22:20:03Z")
[QUOTE=suranyi] Nowadays a lot of airlines have “fake” direct flights, which look like direct flights but which are really connecting flights. For example, UA has a flight 936 from San Francisco to Zurich with 1 stop. In fact that flight requires a connection in Washington. The only way to be sure you don’t have to get off the plane is to book a nonstop. Ed [/QUOTE] But you have to understand the airlines terminology. Nonstop = “non stop” Direct = “This flight makes a stop, but you will not have to change planes.” Connection = “You will have a stop enroute that will involve you leaving plane A and getting on plane B.” Unfortunately, the general public hears “direct” and they think “nonstop”; unless they’ve been informed otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/93 "2007-09-27T05:20:58Z")
[QUOTE=GrizzRich] But you have to understand the airlines terminology. Nonstop = “non stop” Direct = “This flight makes a stop, but you will not have to change planes.” Connection = “You will have a stop enroute that will involve you leaving plane A and getting on plane B.” Unfortunately, the general public hears “direct” and they think “nonstop”; unless they’ve been informed otherwise. [/QUOTE] The point is that even when a flight appears to be “direct” on a timetable, by the airlines terminology, it is often really a connection. To put it bluntly, in those cases the timetable is lying. Ed [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610.md?page=4)