# Damn atheists during Christmas time **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 23, 2000, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995 "2000-12-23T15:44:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2000, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/61 "2000-12-24T17:07:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Anyways, they sang traditional religious songs for their Winter Concert. Why, you ask? Because they are TRADITIONAL. Schools should allow students to do a medieval hymn, if it’s about learning something. And _traditionally,_ atheists are dicked over by the Christian population of Europe and America. But I guess it’s tradition, so it’s ok… > [@](#): > > Look-whatever someone wishes you, simply say, as I do, “Thanks, you too.” It’s not worth the aggravation. Save it for something more important. I do reply in kind, for two reasons: 1. My conditioning as a sales clerk has made it automated. 2. I do celebrate Christmas, despite a profound atheism. If I didn’t, though, I’d get pretty annoyed real fast. Moreover, it _is_ worth it to correct someone–albeit politely–if it means they may not assume you’re a flaming Christian next time. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2000, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/62 "2000-12-24T17:12:38Z")
_sigh_ It’s not about the songs being Christian-they are studying music, and the history of it. To not study a famous composer because his music was Christian or whatever is ridiculous. They are being classically trained. I mean, sheesh, should art students not have to study Michaelangelo’s Sistine Chapel frescas just because they aren’t all Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2000, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/63 "2000-12-24T17:28:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Myrr21 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Anyways, they sang traditional religious songs for their Winter Concert. Why, you ask? Because they are TRADITIONAL. Schools should allow students to do a medieval hymn, if it’s about learning something. > > And _traditionally,_ atheists are dicked over by the Christian population of Europe and America. But I guess it’s tradition, so it’s ok…\*\* And this is the kind of knee-jerk reaction I find to be bullshit. You make it sound as if ALL the Christians in the world got together at some huge meeting at the Vtican and said, “Hey you know what, let’s fuck with the atheists every December! Bwa-ha-ha!” How exactly are you being “dicked over” I can understand being annoyed by the Christmas hype every year, but you’re hardly getting dicked over. Christians aren’t getting any special deals this time of year, there’s no special “Christian only” check-out line at the store for people who are Christmas shopping. We don’t get our own parking places closer to the mall entrances. Maybe we have different definitions of was gettng “dicked over” is. Yes, I can understand you being annoyed with the way atheists are portrayed in films and on TV with holiday themes. Yes, I can sympathize with you having to put up with all the decorations and songs everywhere you go. But I don’t see how all the Christians are dicking you over. 1. Don’t lump all Christians together. There’s many different groups and we don’t all share the same thoughts and ideas. 2. You think it’s the Christians that commercialized the holiday and shoved it down everyone’s throat? No, it’s the businessmen who realized they can make a lot of money by pandering to the masses and hype up the holiday as a time to buy, buy, buy. It’s the media and the advertisers’ hype that are dicking you over in an attempt to pander to the Christians. It’s not the Christians as a group. 3. Hi Opal! ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2000, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/64 "2000-12-24T17:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _sigh_ It’s not about the songs being Christian-they are studying music, and the history of it. To not study a famous composer because his music was Christian or whatever is ridiculous. I realize that this is important music history, and certainly worth anybody studying, but what happens if somebody is part of the choir, but feels uncomfortable singing songs about Jesus being their friggin savior? There is plenty of historically important music–especially at a high school level (even a really really good high school level)–that can be performed that is non-religious. If teachers can’t have the children _say_ Jesus is our savior, why can they have them _sing_ it in the name of “tradition”? I guess I’m seeing a distinction between studying something and being told “if you want to be in this choir, you have to sing this to an audience of your friends/parents/etc”. It is a bit of a tricky situation, and balancing the students’ need to learn with their rights is tough, but you can’t simply say “it’s a tradition” and be done with it. **Crunchy Frog:** I wasn’t referring to Christmas specifically by that–I was pointing out that “it’s traditional” is not a valid defence. If you deny that for a long period of history atheists (to say nothing of Jews, Pagans, and whatnot) have been dicked over by the Christians (only sometimes as an organized whole), then you are being willfully ignorant of history. Granted, history has been a long train of people dicking over somebody else, and the Christians got their fair share of it, but for the most part in the last long-ass time, in our part of the world, atheists have been on the getting end and Christians on the giving… Anyway, to reiterate, all I’m saying is that “tradition” is not an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2000, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/65 "2000-12-24T18:23:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Myrr21 \* > \*\*I wasn’t referring to Christmas specifically by that–I was pointing out that “it’s traditional” is not a valid defence. If you deny that for a long period of history atheists (to say nothing of Jews, Pagans, and whatnot) have been dicked over by the Christians (only sometimes as an organized whole), then you are being willfully ignorant of history. \*\* I see, I thought you were referring to the here and now. In your case, I have to agree with you. The Christians in general were not a nice bunch in history and certainly did not live up to what the religion stands for. ---
**Author:** ![beergeek279](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@beergeek279](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beergeek279)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2000, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/66 "2000-12-25T00:48:38Z")
Personally, as an atheist, I’d much rather celebrate Saturnalia than Christmas anyway…presents ALONG with drunken orgy has a much better ring to it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2000, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/67 "2000-12-25T08:49:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > Whether or not you meant to be nice, I can tell you that hearing the umpteenth well-meaning person wish me a joyeux Noël has the same grating effect on my brain as hearing the umpteenth well-meaning person inviting me to bring my girlfriend to a party - an event that happily does not happen as often as I get wished a merry Christmas this time of year. What do I do? Wish them a blessed Solstice back? \*\* As a former agnostic turned self-styled Hindo-Shamanistic Buddhist who finally came home to the Catholic Church, my answer to that question would be- Sure, why not? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2000, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/68 "2000-12-25T08:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Montfort \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Crunchy Frog \* > > \*\*I see Montfort answered you, I missed that. I don’t know the lyrics, but I’m content to take Montfort’s word for it. Yes, if it doesn’t refer to any religious themes, that puts it in the same league as “Winter Wonderland”. \*\* > > Dreidel dreidel dreidel > I made it out of clay > And when it’s dry and ready > O dreidel I shall play > > (repeat ad nauseum) > > It’s rather secular, with a kick-ass melody, plus it has a good beat and you can dance to it. \*\* [South Park flashback] Stan- “I’ll try to make it spin, it fell, I’ll try again.” Cartman- “Jews play stupid games Jews That’s why they’re lame” never could figure out what Kyle’s mom was singing, but she has a great voice.[/South Park flashback] ---
**Author:** ![wyldelf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/4491bb/32.png) [@wyldelf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wyldelf)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2000, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/69 "2000-12-25T09:38:22Z")
Ok - I am non-religious (though probably don’t have a strong enough belief in there not being a god to be athiest) I don’t generally celebrate Christmas in its traditional form either. This year (though also different by circumstance) a group of my friends and I had a celebration of friendship a couple of nights ago and that was our way of celebrating this time of year, which I associate with a recognition of love and goodwill, and not religious significance. This was done so that those of my friends who celebrate the Christian faith could spend the actual day of Christmas in their own way. Crunchy I can see your point of view and am also glad to see it changing as you debate your point. It is often very difficult to view things from more than one perspective, especially when we are conditioned into our beliefs (either by family, friends, events or ourselves). I greatly respect the fact that while you started with a rant/vent of your feelings you have been willing to debate these feelings with others and modify your views based on others beliefs. Congratulations on a rare insight. As previously stated I do not share your Christian beliefs though I recognise Christmas as an essentially christian holiday and wish all who follow the faith the very best for it. However due to mass commercialism I think Christmas has also become a standard bearer for other messages and that is why a lot of other people also celebrate it, though they are not necessarily of Christian faith. I think now it is quite often seen by people as a way of saying thank you for the love and friendship we have received over the past year. I do not find this offensive either as I think we do not focus on this enough and anything that promotes these feelings can’t be bad. In short Crunchy - I would hate to offend anyone by belittling (spelling?) their beliefs. So to you a Very Merry Christmas, to others Happy Holidays, may you all stay safe and sound and spend your days with ones you love. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2000, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/70 "2000-12-25T16:34:52Z")
yosemitebabe said: > [@](#): > > I’ve encounted a few atheists who bitch about Christmas. Bitch about nothing being open. Bitch about everyone having a day off. (And I am not going to dispute this, by the way. If that’s the way you feel…) But it so happens that these particular atheists personally are enjoying the benefits of Christmas. They don’t go to work, they don’t want to go to work. They enjoy spending time with their family, exchanging gifts, having a tree, etc. What is there to bitch about? I don’t get it. If an atheist is actually not doing anything special on that day, then I can see them being put out by everything stopping on December 25th. But when they are actually enjoying the season (in their own way) what’s their beef about other people enjoying it too? I can’t speak for these mysterious atheists who seem to be hypocrites – perhaps you could point them to the SDMB. However, I can certainly tell you, as I sit here typing this message, that I’d much rather be at work today and get a day off when it actually means something to me or even when I can just use it as I see fit. So have a merry Monday. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2000, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/71 "2000-12-25T16:37:36Z")
Kinsey said: > [@](#): > > For their “Winter Concerts,” which I have been attending for many years now, they sing or perform the floowoing: > Hanukah songs, Kwanzaa songs, and winter-themed songs (i.e., “Winter Wonderland”, “Jingle Bells”, “Frosty”…stuff that is not specifically Christmas), BUT they never perform a Christian Christmas song, like “Silent Night”, “O Come All Ye Fathiful” or something that mentions the birth Of Jesus. > > Kind of a double standard, at least IMHO. Why is it okay to sing “Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel”, but not “O Holy Night”? Do they sing any Hanukkah songs about the 8-day miracle? I bet they don’t. Instead, they sing “non-religious” Hanukkah songs. Just like they sing “non-religious” Christmas songs. Frankly, it would be best if they didn’t sing _any_ songs relating to _any_ holidays, but that concept seems to face huge opposition. So if they’re going to sing anything, they should include mentions of other holidays – and keep the religious aspects out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2000, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/72 "2000-12-25T17:34:03Z")
I work in customer service, and people wish me a Merry Christmas all the time. However, I’m Pagan. But I celebrate Christmas, and Yule, and Hannuka (my mom’s SO is Jewish). My response is usually something along the lines of “Thanks! You have a nice holiday as well!” I take it on faith that someone wishing me a Merry Christmas actually means it. They hope that I have a Merry Christmas. They don’t know that I don’t share their faith, but to me, that doesn’t matter. They’re just being nice, and I appreciate it. When I extend holiday greetings to someone, I generally say “have a good holiday.” A Christian can take that to mean Merry Christmas. An atheist can take it to mean “I hope your day off doesn’t suck.” That’s the way I want it to come across, anyway. Far be it from me to try & presume what strangers celebrate (or don’t). And Crunchy–Myfootupyourassmas? BWAAAAAHAHAHA! I love it! If anything ever _needed_ to be a holiday, _that_ is it! ---
**Author:** ![porcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/73 "2000-12-26T03:38:58Z")
**Crunchy** Sorry for not responding sooner, but I’ve been away for the Xmas weekend. Most of the things I wanted to say have already been said, so I’ll just respond to this in particulur, since I don’t like to leave personal responses unanswered. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crunchy Frog \* > \*\* > **porcupine** - I did not mean that you did not have the right to celebrate. As I thought I made clear in the OP, I’m not telling anyone what to think or believe. My rant is directed at those atheists who are assholes. \*\* Your rant may have started against a particular atheist asshole, but you made generalizations about what “atheists want” at this time of year, which is why I felt like responding. Every atheist I know celebrate Christmas to some degree. I know _you’re_ not telling me I shouldn’t celebrate Christmas, but some Christians have. That doesn’t mean I think _all_ Christians are inconsiderate assholes. My point was that, given the language of the OP, you seemed to be making a generalization about all atheists, and this is what I had the problem with. > [@](#): > > \*\*If you’re not like that, then why should you take offense? \*\* I didn’t take offense. I was just pointing out the fact that not all atheists are “bah, humbug” when it comes to Christmas. Believe me, if I were actually offended, my response would have been a little, uh, _warmer_. > [@](#): > > \*\*I was Christmas shopping last night and told a clerk behind the counter Merry Christmas. In response I got “I’m atheist, I don’t believe in Christmas.” How do you respond to that? \*\* How would I personally respond? Hmmm, I usually say “Thanks. Happy Holidays.” But then again, the people who don’t know me who’ve said this to me are usually store clerks where I am buying Xmas cards or ornaments or Xmas presents. So it would be pretty assholish for me to respond any other way. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/74 "2000-12-26T07:35:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > I can’t speak for these mysterious atheists who seem to be hypocrites – perhaps you could point them to the SDMB. Fortunately, I left them on another board. Dopers seem to have a little more sensible about this particular issue. So far as I’ve seen! 😉 > [@](#): > > So have a merry Monday. I had a nice Christmas, thank you. Hope your Monday was nice. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/75 "2000-12-26T13:10:14Z")
Well, most Dopers are more sensible about most issues. 😃 I’m glad you had a good holiday. Me? I was busy being harassed by my wife to clean up and do various house projects (fix the closet door, fix the drawer, etc.). Now you see why I would have rather been at work! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/76 "2000-12-27T03:31:01Z")
I was getting lots of nice jewelry, pj clothes to wear around the house, and some neat stuffed animals! I also had fun kidding around with my cousins and eating really good food. ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/77 "2000-12-27T04:16:37Z")
This thread seems to have said pretty much all that needs to be said about awareness and tolerance. I will add, however, that even “Happy Holidays” can offend some. You can’t please everyone. For example, we have a Jehovah’s Witness here where I work. They don’t celebrate _any_ holidays, including birthdays. She (we’ll call her M) was very touched by the fact that after Thanksgiving, I walked into the office she shares with another girl (J) and said “J, how was your Thanksgiving? M, how were your two days off?” She thanked me for remembering that she didn’t celebrate any holidays. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/78 "2000-12-27T04:35:51Z")
I think “Merry Christmas” has been the default greeting for so long, even a lot of Jews and Muslims say it around this time of year. I think that for non-Christians (to expand on a previous post) the appropriate response would be something (pick the greeting of your choice) Blessed Solstice Happy Haunukka Blessed Ramadan Debauched Saturnalia Gud Jul Merry Monday (I actually kind of like that. I think we should say it every week, when Monday’s coming up) As for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I don’t know. Merry Monday might work for them, but even that would imply that it was a day of celebration. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Pit\_and\_The\_Pendulum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@The\_Pit\_and\_The\_Pendulum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Pit_and_The_Pendulum)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/79 "2000-12-27T17:33:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crunchy Frog \* > \*\*But then, I remember I’m Christian. I’ll fogive them for poking fun at my religion, as I do every year. > \*\* I won’t “forgive” you for your sactimonious bullshit. Know why? Because “forgiving” isn’t part of my religion. Nobody really has the right or authority to “forgive” anybody else you jackass. Get off our collective backs. We’ve been burned at the stake too often, and now face 4 years of official hate from Washinton. Your boy won. Don’t gloat, that’s just rude. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995/80 "2000-12-27T17:54:59Z")
Another “damn atheist” checking in. I am old enough to know by now that Christians own and rule this country, and that they periodically (Xmas, Easter and a few other times) get to joyously rub everyone else’s noses in that fact. I don’t like it. But when someone good-naturedly says “Merry Christmas” to me, I smile back and say “Happy New Year.” But I think it is hard for Christians to realize just how fucking annoying it is to spend EVERY GODDAM DECEMBER seeing their religion promoted on TV, radio, print, stores, PA systems, public parks, you name it, as if 100 percent of the population is Christian. Y’all say, “We’re sick of the overkill, too,” but do any of you DO anything about it?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-atheists-during-christmas-time/46995.md?page=5)