# Damn, but it's good to be a Blue stater! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644 "2004-11-08T14:36:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/101 "2004-11-09T15:28:27Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Good luck finding a Democrat with that kind of balls! No…I mean it. If you can find a centrist Democrat who won’t pander to the wackos on the Left, who will take a stand and not waffle every week, who actually has a record of supporting the people without sticking it to those who are successful, who doesn’t favor a minority over the majority but still supports minority equality, who protects the environment while maintaining economic growth, who doesn’t support social engineering with my tax dollars, who thinks the UN is a good idea, but not the organization that calls the shots, who supports the right of the people to keep and bear arms…I’ll vote for him! > > Until then, I vote against them. 😃 Well, you may see me run in a few years. because that pretty much describes my political philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/102 "2004-11-09T15:33:18Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Here are the issues that the Dems need to hit over and over again: > **Jobs > Health Care > National Security > The Balance of Freedom and Responsibility**. You left out the environment, an issue where Americans are consistently to the left of the Republican party, but which got ignored by both sides during this election. It’s a place where the Democratic stance is clearly the moral stance. But otherwise I agree. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/103 "2004-11-09T16:50:03Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > But what sane person can object to reducing industrial pollution, keeping jobs in the US, forming alliances with other nations to ensure our mutual safety against terrorists, ensuring a health care safety net for the indigent, and restoring a budget surplus by balancing income with expenditure? I don’t think you’ll hear anyone actually coming out _against_ any of those ideals. It’s the _mechanism_ for attaining those goals to which we _true conservatives_ (and Libertarians) object. Higher taxes, a larger and more powerful government, greater dependence on Washington, and reduced individual choices are what we see as the inevitable outcomes of placing all this under the aegis of government. What **doesn’t** make sense tho’, is that the Republicans are currently vulnerable in every one of these policy area - and that the Democrats didn’t hammer the ever-lovin’ crap out of them over it. Instead, Kerry got up on the stump and by not hotly contesting the neo-con vision, he essentially gave it his tacit approval. Which is really surprising to me, given his liberal voting record in Congress. I suspect Kerry’s own instincts were overruled by the party. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/104 "2004-11-09T17:01:20Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > That’s something I don’t get. If the Dems’ platform included the nationalization of all industry, the abolition of private property, banning all firearms, renaming the country the People’s Republic of America, and installing Michael Moore as General Secretary of the Politburo, then I could agree that maybe the Dems might have treedned too much to the left. > > But what sane person can object to reducing industrial pollution, keeping jobs in the US, forming alliances with other nations to ensure our mutual safety against terrorists, ensuring a health care safety net for the indigent, and restoring a budget surplus by balancing income with expenditure? > > I don;t want heavy metals in my water. Is that leftist? > I want to fix the health care system. Is that leftist? > I want to ensure that our children have access to decent education. Is that leftist? > I want the US government to remain solvent. Is that leftist? > > I can only assume that the GOPers who routinely throw around words like “Marxist” and “leftist” don’t know what those words actually mean. **gobear** , you are aware that many of the ‘red’ states, such as New York, Massachusetts, Conecticutt, Rhode Island are losing jobs? And have been, now, for decades? Until that trend gets reversed it’s going to be a hard sell to convince many people that the methods being used by the urban elites will work to keep jobs in any given area. As for heavy metals, some of the current laws on the books are based on economical lab techniques going back to the 30’s, especially those with the words “no detectable levels of…” Given the advances in analytic techniques it’s not entirely unreasonable, IMNSHO, to raise the allowed limits to reflect the fact that damaging levels of many of the heavy metals are going to be orders or magnitude above the minimum _detectable_ levels, and thus those levels that are safe will also be above that level. For education - I would like to hear nitty gritty details, not simply platitudes. I understand much of the resentment for NCLB on this message board - though it does seem to have been little more than an expansion of programs originally proposed by Democrats, including Hillary Clinton. However, without some kind of way to measure accomplishment - what is the voter left to judge what defines a quality education? Working to improve graduation rates is a good general plan, but without details given - how can one be sure that the method being used isn’t simply social graduation regardless of actual student capability? Frankly, one of the bigger crimes in modern education, IMNSHO, is that it is impossible to even mention how much the Bible has molded, affected, and shaped great literature, and history. I’m not trying to blame any one group for this: many Christians would be as horrified by the idea of teaching the Bible as one of the seminal works of world literature as any athiest could hope. I’d love to see the government become solvent, too. Hell, any government. I don’t know the details for your state (Virginia, I believe?) but I know New York has one of the highest debt loads of any of the states - and keeps getting its bond rating lowered because of that. Again - if you’re saying that blue states are, by definition, doing things better than the red states, I have to disagree most vehemently. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/105 "2004-11-09T17:04:03Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I don’t think you’ll hear anyone actually coming out _against_ any of those ideals. It’s the _mechanism_ for attaining those goals to which we _true conservatives_ (and Libertarians) object. Higher taxes, a larger and more powerful government, greater dependence on Washington, and reduced individual choices are what we see as the inevitable outcomes of placing all this under the aegis of government. What **doesn’t** make sense tho’, is that the Republicans are currently vulnerable in every one of these policy area - and that the Democrats didn’t hammer the ever-lovin’ crap out of them over it. Instead, Kerry got up on the stump and by not hotly contesting the neo-con vision, he essentially gave it his tacit approval. Which is really surprising to me, given his liberal voting record in Congress. I suspect Kerry’s own instincts were overruled by the party. Hear! Hear! ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/106 "2004-11-09T18:03:29Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Las Vegas, Nevada? Miami, Florida? Dallas, Texas? Washington Courthouse, Ohio? Just because you may not care for them does not change that there are indeed ‘major cities’ in red states. Besides that, your logic sucks. Nobody is going to attack those places. Dallas? Oh man that’s fucking funny. NY - Financial DC - Power structure. If you don’t live in either, go back to your business and don’t worry about OBL. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/107 "2004-11-09T18:16:00Z")
The chances of Dallas being attacked would seem greater than those of, say, Boca Raton. Yet Boca Raton was one of the affected areas in the anthrax attacks back in 2001. Care to revise your position? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/108 "2004-11-09T18:25:58Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > The chances of Dallas being attacked would seem greater than those of, say, Boca Raton. > > Yet Boca Raton was one of the affected areas in the anthrax attacks back in 2001. > > Care to revise your position? The anthrax attacs had nothing to do with foreign terrorism, and seems to have been the handiwork of a disgruntled American. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/109 "2004-11-09T18:32:38Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Nobody is going to attack those places. Dallas? Oh man that’s fucking funny. > > NY - Financial > DC - Power structure. > > If you don’t live in either, go back to your business and don’t worry about OBL. I’d like to add California to that list as a technology and business center of the US(4th largest economy in the world-even in a crappy economy). Attack this area, and you pretty much take out a huge portion of internet peering, access, storage and business. Most companies here, however, have implemented disaster recovery strategies by the $$billions, and would be up and running in some fashion, but take out the management structure of those companies and they wouldn’t fare so well for long. But I don’t worry about attacks. For the time being, I still see potential attacks as a political talking point and not a true threat. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/110 "2004-11-09T18:37:02Z")
**World Eater** said _nobody_ was going to attack those places. Apparantly, somebody did. I have to ask, too, about some other places that weren’t Washington or New York. Care to comment on Aden, Yemen? How about Dar es Salaam, Tanzania? How about Nairobi? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/111 "2004-11-09T18:39:38Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > I’d like to add California to that list as a technology and business center of the US(4th largest economy in the world-even in a crappy economy). Attack this area, and you pretty much take out a huge portion of internet peering, access, storage and business. Most companies here, however, have implemented disaster recovery strategies by the $$billions, and would be up and running in some fashion, but take out the management structure of those companies and they wouldn’t fare so well for long. I’d agree, but they don’t want anything to do with Ah-nold. He’ll kill them all. 😛 My position stands **Moto** ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/112 "2004-11-09T18:46:19Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > **World Eater** said _nobody_ was going to attack those places. > > Apparantly, somebody did. Those of OBLs terror network were implied. > [@](#): > > I have to ask, too, about some other places that weren’t Washington or New York. Care to comment on Aden, Yemen? How about Dar es Salaam, Tanzania? How about Nairobi? How many of those places are in the domestic United States? Because my point is sorta that blue states bear the consequences of red states stupidity. To be honest I don’t really give a shit about Nairobi at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/113 "2004-11-09T18:50:26Z")
So be it. I think my numerous examples have proven you dead wrong. Just because Americans face a higher risk of terrorism in New York or Washington doesn’t mean the threat is nonexistent elsewhere. I mentioned Aden, Dar es Salaam and Nairobi because the targets in all of these cities were Americans. You know, our embassies and one naval destroyer. You may recall that the targets in the “millennium plot” were in Los Angeles (LAX, to be specific) and Jordan. Give it up. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/114 "2004-11-09T19:11:39Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > So be it. I think my numerous examples have proven you dead wrong. Like I said the concern here is _DOMESTIC_ terror attacks. > [@](#): > > Just because Americans face a higher risk of terrorism in New York or Washington doesn’t mean the threat is nonexistent elsewhere. I would say just a hair off from nonexistent. > [@](#): > > I mentioned Aden, Dar es Salaam and Nairobi because the targets in all of these cities were Americans. You know, our embassies and one naval destroyer. In Nairobi the majority of fatalities were Kenyan. Weren’t they related somehow to Israel? > [@](#): > > You may recall that the targets in the “millennium plot” were in Los Angeles (LAX, to be specific) and Jordan. “Plot” means nothing. DC and NY. Only ones that got hit, only ones that will again. > [@](#): > > Give it up. Face reality ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/115 "2004-11-09T19:23:31Z")
So your position is that domestic terrorism attacks are the only ones we need to concern ourselves with? That’s a curious position, and not one widely held, I’ll bet. Why don’t you mull over this list of those killed in the Cole bombing. Not a Washington or New York native among them: Lakeina Monique Francis, 19 Woodleaf, North Carolina Information Systems Technician Tim Gauna, 21 Rice, Texas Signalman Seaman Recruit Cherone Louis Gunn, 22 Rex, Georgia Ensign Andrew Triplett, 30 Macon, Mississippi Petty Officer 3rd Class Ronchester Santiago, 22 Kingsville, Texas Seaman Craig Wibberley, 19 Williamsport, Maryland Kevin Shawn Rux, 30 Portland, North Dakota Seaman Recruit Lakiba Nicole Palmer, 22 San Diego, California Hull Maintenance Technician 3rd Class Kenneth Eugene Clodfelter, 21 Mechanicsville, Virginia Engineman 2nd Class Marc Nieto, 24 Fond du Lac, Wisconsin Electronics Warfare Technician 3rd Class Ronald Scott Owens, 24 Vero Beach, Florida Electronics Technician 1st Class Richard Costelow, 35 Morrisville, Pennsylvania Fireman Apprentice Patrick Roy, 19 Keedysville, Maryland Engineman Fireman Joshua Parlett, 19 Churchville, Maryland Fireman Gary Graham Swenchonis, 26 Rockport, Texas Seaman James Rodrick McDaniels, 19 Norfolk, Virginia Operations Specialist 2nd Class Timothy Lamont Saunders, 32 Ringgold, Virginia ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/116 "2004-11-09T19:42:09Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > So your position is that domestic terrorism attacks are the only ones we need to concern ourselves with? They’re the ones the red states were worried about when they voted Bush. I’m sure they feel bad and all for those Kenyans though. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Why don’t you mull over this list of those killed in the Cole bombing. Not a Washington or New York native among them: And what does this have to do with NY being the #1 _geographical_ target in the country? To make you happy I’ll amend my list ok? NY DC Warships ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/117 "2004-11-09T20:11:39Z")
You really don’t get it at all, **World Eater**. Red state Americans are a curious bunch. As much as the elites in New York and Washington dismiss them, and describe them as if they inhabited a different America, the folks in these areas responded to attacks on New York and Washington as if their home towns were getting hit. At least 13 other states provided disaster relief support to New York City, either through the Emergency Management Assistance Compact or on their own. In addition to this, people from across the country volunteered time or money for relief operations. Now you’re sitting there bashing these folks for being concerned about terrorism. I have to ask you, shouldn’t we all be concerned? Isn’t an attack on Washington or New York an attack on all of America? I know, it sucks to back down. But your position isn’t tenable. Osama bin Laden has attacked America and Americans in far more places than NY and DC. And it would have been wrong for Americans everywhere not to respond to this crisis. Now, you call this blue state America suffering from red state stupidity. Myself, I see it a bit differently. It’s blue state America benefiting from the wisdom of red state voters. Disagree with them all you want. That’s just the transient politics of the day. Beyond that, you owe them a huge debt of gratitude, like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/118 "2004-11-09T20:42:16Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > You really don’t get it at all, **World Eater**. Naturally I’m inclined to disagree. Look, I don’t hold the red states accountable for 9/11 at all. I _do_ hold them directly accountable for endorsing every screwed up thing Bush has done in the past 4 years. Now looking to the future, I strongly believe that Bush will fuck more things up, and piss more people off around the globe. This increased anger will paint a bigger target on certain places in the country. (try and guess which, I’ve named them about 50 times.) Now I don’t give one shit if, after a future attack, these reds want to send us boxes of American flag cookies or lend us a few of their mutts to sniff out our corpses. As far as I’m concerned the damage was done when they voted for that clown, and no amount of altruism can overcome it. > [@](#): > > At least 13 other states provided disaster relief support to New York City, either through the Emergency Management Assistance Compact or on their own. Not enough, please send the Wyoming sheep protection money to our ports for security upgrades. > [@](#): > > Now you’re sitting there bashing these folks for being concerned about terrorism. I have to ask you, shouldn’t we all be concerned? Isn’t an attack on Washington or New York an attack on all of America? No it’s an attack on Washington or New York. > [@](#): > > I know, it sucks to back down. But your position isn’t tenable. Osama bin Laden has attacked America and Americans in far more places than NY and DC. And it would have been wrong for Americans everywhere not to respond to this crisis. I think we _should_ respond to the crisis, it’s our #1 priority. The difference is I have the “wacky” notion that Bush is not the best person. A cat could run things better. > [@](#): > > Now, you call this blue state America suffering from red state stupidity. Myself, I see it a bit differently. It’s blue state America benefiting from the wisdom of red state voters. Get ready to watch your “wisdom” split this country in half, and then the two pieces will swirl down the crapper together. > [@](#): > > Disagree with them all you want. That’s just the transient politics of the day. Beyond that, you owe them a huge debt of gratitude, like it or not. Owe them a huge debt of gratitude? Screw each and everyone of those motherfuckers. Looks like we’ll just have to disagree here, and I’ll continue to call you a subhuman cavedweller. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/119 "2004-11-09T20:47:05Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I know, it sucks to back down. But your position isn’t tenable. Osama bin Laden has attacked America and Americans in far more places than NY and DC. And it would have been wrong for Americans everywhere not to respond to this crisis. But you can’t deny that New Yorkers were hit the hardest. And yet they went democratic in astounding numbers. Manhatten went 83% for Kerry. That’s almost 5 to 1. Did they do this to make themselves less safe? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644/120 "2004-11-09T20:53:41Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > So your position is that domestic terrorism attacks are the only ones we need to concern ourselves with? > > That’s a curious position, and not one widely held, I’ll bet. > > Why don’t you mull over this list of those killed in the Cole bombing. Not a Washington or New York native among them: I mean no disrespect to these victims, but America in general didn’t really give a flying fuck about terrorism until September 11th. It wasn’t a major election year issue to my knowledge. The WTC towers falling is what precipitated this wave of concern, and yet the very people hit the hardest by it apparently didn’t feel that Bush could best protect them. Isn’t that kind of odd? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-but-its-good-to-be-a-blue-stater/273644.md?page=7)