# Damn, how many middle age white guys do "edutainment" videos on YouTube? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 11, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351 "2020-09-11T15:51:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/82 "2020-10-29T16:57:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not a put-on, it’s a legit Southern _White_ accent. Well since the internet seems to not know the actual race or identity of that Youtuber in question, mind sharing how you, a South African, are so sure the speaker is White? And it seems pretty obvious to me that when someone says something about the differences heard in peoples voices, they mean the from sounds spoken. I don’t know how else to read that other than meaning their dialect/accent/whatever. If “voice” is used to mean a different thing in South Africa than in America then maybe that is where the disconnect is coming from. Yes I am talking about hearing someone’s sounds spoken from their mouth and the slight variations in those spoken sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/83 "2020-10-29T17:18:20Z")
American dialects and accents are influenced to a far greater degree by ethnicity than Britons’. Simply put, a black person and a white person who grow up in the same town, with the same economic background and the same education, will typically still be distinguishable by the way they speak. In the UK, there is also a tendency for nonwhites to be clustered in cities where the underlying accent may be so thick as to “muffle” the speaker’s race. My old boss (a lawyer) had an assistant who had worked for him for something like 25 years. She grew up in Ohio, and moved around the South a bit when she was young. She talked to the same people over and over for years while scheduling events. Without fail, every time we met people who hadn’t seen her in person before they did a double-take (or remarked to me) because they were surprised she was black. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/84 "2020-10-29T17:49:58Z")
And if you look at John McWhorter’s work on the matter, he talks about how black American accents arent likited to “stereotypical blaccents” as menrikned upthread. Yes, some black people have very strong black accent s that’s are easily distinguishable. But many “blaccents” differ from white accents of the same region/class in only very subtle ways, and Americans will pick up on the “blackness” of the speech often without being fully aware of what the specific pronunciation features are. McWhorter says in the podcast linked above: > You can generally tell whether somebody is white or black even if they’re just reading from the phone book. And so it’s not about slang and although there is a black English grammar, a black person can not use that at all and yet I think any American knows—and I think many of us are taught to feel guilty about it or to suppose there’s something racist about it—but any American knows in their heart of hearts that there is a such [sic] thing as a black voice and many studies have shown that Americans are very, very good at identifying after often just a few syllables whether on earth is white or black. Notice this use of “voice” by a highly trained linguistic scholar talking about pronunciation. He indicates that the differences are mostly in “tiny little shadings of vowels.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/85 "2020-10-29T17:56:02Z")
Some examples he gives— /ɛ/ before /m/ or /n/ tends towards /ɪ/, not as complete as on the pen-pin merger, but similar /ɑ/ as in “hot” is fronted so it is more like [hat] /ɝ/ as in “word” is lowered toward [ward] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/86 "2020-10-29T22:15:22Z")
And of course the reason we have this situation in the United States, in which white people and black people have different accents, is the severe segregation in our society. ---
**Author:** ![Ranch\_Dip](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranch_dip/32/5238_2.png) [@Ranch\_Dip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranch_Dip)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/87 "2020-10-29T22:57:28Z")
Partly the issue is the algorithm giving you what it thinks you want to see. The other part of it is these guys have been in the youtube game a long time. They have hit their stride and have a lot of subscribers. Many of them have been doing youtube since the early days. They are the OG contingent. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/88 "2020-10-30T06:31:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Notice this use of “voice” by a highly trained linguistic scholar talking about pronunciation. > > He indicates that the differences are mostly in “tiny little shadings of vowels.” In that case he _is_ talking about what I would call “voice”, too. I would call it “intonation” rather than “pronunciation”, though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/89 "2020-10-30T06:39:20Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Well since the internet seems to not know the actual race or identity of that Youtuber in question, mind sharing how you, a South African, are so sure the speaker is White? His real name and picture did the rounds in a Maker FB group a couple of years ago. Of course, it _may_ have been a hoax, but the picture was of a middle-aged White guy. The group doesn’t exist any more, so you’ll have to take my word for it. > [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I don’t know how else to read that other than meaning their dialect/accent/whatever. When I hear “voice”, I assume pitch and all the other vocal effects like fry and vibrato etc. Like, if most Black people in a place spoke the same broad accent as Whites but with a noticeable falsetto tone, I would call _that_ a “voice” but not an “accent”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/90 "2020-10-30T10:41:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Acsenray](#): > > > > Notice this use of “voice” by a highly trained linguistic scholar talking about pronunciation. > > > > He indicates that the differences are mostly in “tiny little shadings of vowels.” > > In that case he _is_ talking about what I would call “voice”, too. I would call it “intonation” rather than “pronunciation”, though. All the examples he gives have to do with systematic vowel differences. How is that intonation as opposed to accent/pronunciation? And it’s all in the context of a conversation that repeatedly uses the term “blaccent.” What hill are you dying on here? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/91 "2020-10-30T10:52:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > All the examples he gives have to do with systematic vowel differences. How is that intonation as opposed to accent/pronunciation? I’d say “tiny little shadings of vowels.” are intonations, whereas stuff like saying “ax” for “ask” is pronunciation. > [@](#): > > What hill are you dying on here? Not dying on any hill, just explaining what I consider the difference between “voice” and “accent” so as you’ll get where I’m coming from in objecting to someone saying Black people have a distinctive “voice” as opposed to a different “accent”. IMO, if they had a different “voice”, it would carry _across_ accents. You’d be able to identify me as PoC even when I speak without any stereotypically Black accent. That’s what I understand by the word “voice”. Like I said, if you _mean_ “accent” when you say “voice”, I’ll happily acknowledge that you’re in good company (well, _academically_ good company) while still saying it’s a confusing usage and the word “accent” is way less ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/92 "2020-10-30T11:30:04Z")
Just the structure of a person’s face can affect the way they speak, to the extent that researchers have been able to train machine learning algorithms that can reconstruct fairly striking likenesses of a person’s face, based only on a small sample of their speech > **[1905.09773.pdf](https://arxiv.org/pdf/1905.09773.pdf)** > > 5.05 MB ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/93 "2020-10-30T13:56:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Acsenray](#): > > > > All the examples he gives have to do with systematic vowel differences. How is that intonation as opposed to accent/pronunciation? > > I’d say “tiny little shadings of vowels.” are intonations, whereas stuff like saying “ax” for “ask” is pronunciation. This has descended into absurdity. We are now quibbling over definitions that are wayyy beside any point that can be me made in this thread. And the distinctions you’re making are both (1) wrong and (2) irrelevant. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > What hill are you dying on here? > > Not dying on any hill, just explaining what I consider the difference between “voice” and “accent” so as you’ll get where I’m coming from in objecting to someone saying Black people have a distinctive “voice” as opposed to a different “accent”. > > IMO, if they had a different “voice”, it would carry _across_ accents. You’d be able to identify me as PoC even when I speak without any stereotypically Black accent. That’s what I understand by the word “voice”. Like I said, if you _mean_ “accent” when you say “voice”, I’ll happily acknowledge that you’re in good company (well, _academically_ good company) while still saying it’s a confusing usage and the word “accent” is way less ambiguous. Why do you keep saying “stereotypical”? I already told you that when I said “voice” I meant pronunciation an accent. I am not interested in this diversion to voice. And it is also very clear that John McWhorter is talking about the same thing I am. “Shadings of vowels” is almost an exact definition of “accent.” This conversation has become silly. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/94 "2020-10-30T14:07:46Z")
I wonder if I can use the Batphone to get @Johanna on the line. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/95 "2020-10-30T14:08:57Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why do you keep saying “stereotypical”? Because that’s all they are - stereotypes. Not all Blacks have a recognizable “Blaccent”. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I already told you that when I said “voice” I meant pronunciation an accent. And I’ve said that I accept that’s what you mean. > [@Acsenray](#): > > . I am not interested in this diversion to voice. How can it be a diversion if it was the word used in the first post? > [@Acsenray](#): > > “Shadings of vowels” is almost an exact definition of “accent.” Accent is _much_ broader than that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/96 "2020-10-30T14:14:29Z")
Under this standard, _all_ accents are stereotypical. So “stereotypical” is redundant. There _are_ some stereotypes regarding accents, and you might see black characters in movies stereotyped as having a certain manner of speech. But we aren’t talking about such stereotypes. We are talking about the existence of actual accents in the United States. The use of the word “stereotype” here is misleading. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/97 "2020-10-30T14:27:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Under this standard, _all_ accents are stereotypical. No, that’s bullshit - some accents are stereotypically attached to ethnic groups, others are much less so. For instance, there’s a range of South African accents that are stereotypically Black or White or Coloured or Indian - but there are others that are strongly cross-ethnic, like the Model C accent and the Namaqualand accent. > [@Acsenray](#): > > But we aren’t talking about such stereotypes. We are talking about the existence of actual accents in the United States.[/quote] > We’re talking about assigning ethnicity to people, sight unseen, based on their accent. That very much is stereotyping. > > [quote] The use of the word “stereotype” here is misleading. Misleading? _Now_ you’re all about clear language, when you’ve just spent _how many_ posts ardently defending ambiguous wording? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/98 "2020-10-30T14:34:26Z")
“Ardently” is an interesting word for you to use here. You’re using the word “stereotype” to accuse is of ethnic stereotyping. It’s no more or less stereotyping than to hear someone with a French or English or South African accent and think “that person is probably French, English, or South African.” This is a reality in the United States. Just as there are regional accents, there are also African-American accents. And these are genuine accents, not ethnic stereotypes. Some of the characteristics of these accents are regional, but in some respects black American accents apply accross geographical regions, such as English Received Pronunciation. You’re accusing us of ethnic stereotyping simply for bringing this to your attention. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/99 "2020-10-30T14:37:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Misleading? _Now_ you’re all about clear language, when you’ve just spent _how many_ posts ardently defending ambiguous wording? I used a word. You misunderstood it. I explained my usage and gave you an example of an expert using it in the same way. This should not be an ongoing issue. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/100 "2020-10-30T15:12:09Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > In other words, seven different Southern accents, including at least one Black accent, that outsiders cannot reliably tell apart. And that’s just where the action of the book takes place. There’s a lot of variation in Southern accents, both black and white. I wouldn’t be surprised at all that they might sound the same to an untrained ear, or that the white/black version of them might also not be distinguishable. I mean, I can mostly tell where someone is from in Texas, and whether they’re from some other state. Sometimes I can tell that someone’s from Louisiana. But I’d be hard pressed to tell a Mississippian from an Alabaman for example. But I’m absolutely sure they can tell each other apart. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351/101 "2020-10-30T15:23:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You’re using the word “stereotype” to accuse is of ethnic stereotyping. Is the problem here that you see the word “stereotype” exclusively as some sort of pejorative? > [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s no more or less stereotyping than to hear someone with a French or English or South African accent and think “that person is probably French, English, or South African.” Yes, those would also be stereotyping. Maybe I’m more tuned to it being stereotyping because I _always_ get _wrongly_ stereotyped in voice-only conversations. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I used a word. You misunderstood it. I explained my usage and gave you an example of an expert using it in the same way. This should not be an ongoing issue. And I said I accepted the usage of the word. Yet you’re still posting about it. So clearly just saying “yes, I accept that the usage of the word is valid” is not enough for you. Are you expecting me to say it _wasn’t_ an unclear usage? Because that’s not going to happen, I’m not in the habit of lying - it _was_ unclear in a way that “accent” is not. Having said that, I’m dropping out of the thread because I’ve already commented on the _actual_ topic and you’re clearly just looking for a fight that I have no interest in giving you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-how-many-middle-age-white-guys-do-edutainment-videos-on-youtube/920351.md?page=6)