# Damn moon landing conspiracy theorist! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 18, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560 "2009-09-18T05:53:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/21 "2009-09-18T20:51:15Z")
You owe me a new keyboard after that post. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/22 "2009-09-18T23:56:18Z")
> [@Shig](#): > > So I know a guy who’s convinced that no human has ever been to the moon. His biggest claim to support this is the amount of fuel that would have been needed to get there and back. I’ve found answers to all the other hoax claims, but can’t find anything in regards to this. Does anyone have any info on how much fuel was needed and used that I can present to him? Just respond as follows: Of course they had enough fuel, otherwise they wouldn’t have made it to the moon and back! ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/23 "2009-09-19T00:09:06Z")
You will never convince him and it is a waste of effort to even try. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/24 "2009-09-19T00:14:35Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > This is my suspicion, too, combined with the suspicion that he thinks Saturn V moon rockets run on gasoline. > > _“A quarter of a million miles? Each way? Do you have any idea how much gas that would take?!?!?”_ Plus, you get a lot better gas mileage if you keep the windows rolled up. That’s why they didn’t take a dog with them. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/25 "2009-09-19T03:50:15Z")
or tell him they got great gas milage since there’s no ait resistance in space. Just close enough to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/26 "2009-09-19T04:54:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t believe your friend exists. I think you made him up. Personally, I want to see his birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/27 "2009-09-19T16:46:09Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > This is my suspicion, too, combined with the suspicion that he thinks Saturn V moon rockets run on gasoline. The first stage ran on kerosene. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/28 "2009-09-19T16:58:45Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > You will never convince him and it is a waste of effort to even try. I don’t like this attitude. Not everyone is a die hard conspiracy theorist who is completely immune to facts. Some people just casually give some credence to conspiracy theories because they’re designed to sound compelling on the surface and they’ve never been exposed to the facts or a counterargument. Give the guy 5 minutes of education - if he doesn’t seem receptive to it, then you can safely give up. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/29 "2009-09-19T19:20:31Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I don’t like this attitude. Not everyone is a die hard conspiracy theorist who is completely immune to facts. Some people just casually give some credence to conspiracy theories because they’re designed to sound compelling on the surface and they’ve never been exposed to the facts or a counterargument. Give the guy 5 minutes of education - if he doesn’t seem receptive to it, then you can safely give up. While the essence of your objection is respectable, I think we can safely guess that based on the OP, those five minutes have already been spent. ---
**Author:** ![Shig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Shig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shig)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/30 "2009-09-19T20:29:10Z")
WOW! Awesome responses. Thanks everyone. So many things I want to respond to here… first off, a lot of people are saying things like “don’t bother” or that the guys an idiot. Well, the thing with this guy is that he’s NOT an idiot at all, which is why it bothers me so much that he believes in these goofy hoax theories. He’s not the type of person to buy into BS, but for some reason he has when it comes to this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Shig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Shig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shig)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/31 "2009-09-19T20:31:28Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Some points. > > Its takes WAY more energy to just get into low earth orbit than it does to go from low earth orbit to orbiting the moon, or orbiting the moon to landing on the moon. > > IIRC the Saturn V used about 25 pounds of fuel to put one pound in low earth orbit (LEO). The space shuttle needs about 15. > > To go from the ground to LEO you need a speed of about 10 kilometers per second. To go from LEO to Lunar orbit requires about 4 KPS. To go from lunar orbit to the lunar surface requires “only” 1.6 KPS. > > Keep in mind that a 10 KPS requirement vs say a 5 kps requirement does NOT mean 10 is twice as hard as 5. Its a significantly non-linear function. Take for example, the Saturn V 25 to one ratio. For going from the moons surface to orbiting the moon only required a ratio of roughly 1 to 1 (half the rocket’s mass was fuel). > > So, by comparision, going to and fro is much easier than getting into orbit, and therefore needs much less fuel. And getting outa of orbit and back down is a piece of cake by comparision because you can let the atmosphere do all the work. > > And as for fuel, if I havnt messed up the numbers, the lunar lander had about 15 thousand pounds of fuel. The service module, which took them to and from earths orbit to the lunar orbit, used about 50 thousand pounds of fuel. In my book thats still a bunch of fuel. > > Note, my numbers could be off a bit, dont take em as gospel, but they are certainly ballpark. > > Or to summarize, the Saturn 5 had to do the hardest part by far and also in doing so was putting up the Sevice module, the command module, the lunar lander, and the lunar ascent stage. The Service module had it easier and only had to take the command module and the lunar lander/ascent to lunar orbit. The lunar vehicle had the easiest part and only had to land itself and bring back up about 1/6 the mass it landed. > > So, of course, the rockets at the tail end are going to be smaller and have less fuel than the ones at the front end. It really shouldnt take a rocket scientist to figure this part out. Could you please tell me if there’s somewhere I can view this info online? It’s very helpful, but I’d like to have something to cite. Also, does anyone know what type of fuel was/ is used? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/32 "2009-09-19T20:54:44Z")
> [@Shig](#): > > Could you please tell me if there’s somewhere I can view this info online? It’s very helpful, but I’d like to have something to cite. Also, does anyone know what type of fuel was/ is used? The first stage used RP-1, which is refined kerosene similar to jet fuel, with a liquid oxygen oxidizer. It weighed about 288,000 pounds dry, and about 5 million pounds fully fueled. The second stage weighed about 80,000 empty, and about 1.06 million pounds when fully fueled with liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen. The third stage, known as the S-IVB (‘Ess-four-bee’) weighed about 25,000 pounds empty, and about 262,000 pounds when fueled with liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen. It burned for about 2-1/2 minutes during insertion into orbit, and for about six minutes during the trans-lunar injection. [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V). ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/33 "2009-09-19T21:55:14Z")
In addition to the three stages of the Saturn V **Johnny** discusses (which got the craft into Earth orbit and then later shot it on the way to the moon – called trans-lunar injection), the Apollo spacecraft (consisting of the combined Command and Service Modules (CSM) and the Lunar Module) had three main engines. (The mated Apollo/Saturn stack had a bunch of subsidiary engines used for directional control, ullage (making sure the fuel was sloshed to the bottom of the tank so it burned efficiently) and other stuff, too. But I’m ignoring them because their job wasn’t spacecraft propulsion.) The Service Module had the main SPS engine, used for course correction, to slow the craft to drop it into lunar orbit when it got there, and to burn back home (trans-earth injection). The Lunar Module had two engines, the descent stage, used to separate the LM from the CSM, maneuver in lunar orbit, and land on the moon; and the ascent stage, which popped off the top part of the LM, containing the crew and moon rocks, and flew it back up to dock with the CSM. (As noted, thereby leaving most of the LM’s mass sitting on the moon, where they remain today.) All three of these engines used Aerozine 50, a mix of hydrazine and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine as fuel, with nitrogen tetroxide as the oxidizer. If you look at the schematics (Wikipedia has a wealth of technical and lay drawings of the spacecraft components), you’ll see that the whole program was modular in approach. The biggest part of the rocket, the first stage, is fucking huge, and abominally heavy, sure. But it gets dumped when the craft is only 40 miles off the ground. Then the second, somewhat smaller stage burns a little longer until the rocket is a little higher, and then they drop that. The third stage burns them into TLI, then it drops away for the voyage to the moon. When Apollo gets there, the LM separates, so they don’t have to land the heavy Service Module with all its life-support and the fuel and moderately big engine needed to get home. And, as said, they leave most of the LM on the surface as well, so they don’t have to bring back the bulk of machinery needed to land. At each stage, the craft gets smaller and smaller, so you need less and less fuel to shift what’s left. –Alex ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/34 "2009-09-19T23:50:46Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I don’t like this attitude. Not everyone is a die hard conspiracy theorist who is completely immune to facts. Some people just casually give some credence to conspiracy theories because they’re designed to sound compelling on the surface and they’ve never been exposed to the facts or a counterargument. Give the guy 5 minutes of education - if he doesn’t seem receptive to it, then you can safely give up. I strongly agree. I spend an incredible amount of time debunking conspiracy theories (have asked for help here often) to people who believe in them only because someone spent a drunken half hour bombarding them with it and they just didn’t have an opposing view. Ignorance is not stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/35 "2009-09-19T23:55:05Z")
Quick question for **Cliffy** or **Johnny L.A.** : After the LM docked with the CSM after coming back from the Moon, did it come back to Earth, or did they separate from it again to come back to Earth? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/36 "2009-09-20T00:01:12Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > Quick question for **Cliffy** or **Johnny L.A.** : After the LM docked with the CSM after coming back from the Moon, did it come back to Earth, or did they separate from it again to come back to Earth? The LM was jettisoned before the Apollo capsule returned to Earth. The LMs for Apollos 9 and 13 re-entered the Earth’s atmosphere. The LMs for Apollos 12, 14, 15 and 17 were deliberately crashed into the Moon. Apollo 11’s and 16’s ascent stages were left in orbit around the Moon, and eventually crashed into it. Apollo 10’s LM ascent stage is currently in solar orbit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/37 "2009-09-20T00:12:23Z")
Incidentally, here are the LM serial numbers: LM-1: No name. Flew on Apollo 5. LM-2: No name. On display at the National Air & Space Museum. LM-3: _Spider_. Flew on Apollo 9. LM-4: _Snoopy_. Flew on Apollo 10. LM-5: _Eagle_. Flew on Apollo 11. LM-6: _Intrepid_. Flew on Apollo 12. LM-7: _Antares_. Flew on Apollo 13. LM-8: _Aquarius_. Flew on Apollo 14. LM-9: No name. On display at KSC. LM-10: _Falcon_. Flew on Apollo 15. LM-11: _Orion_. Flew on Apollo 16. LM-12: _Challenger_. Flew on Apollo 17. LM-13: No name. On display at Cradle of Aviation Museum. LM-14: No name. Never completed. LM-15: No name. Scrapped. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/38 "2009-09-20T00:23:15Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > the CSM after coming back from the Moon Oh, yeah… The Command Module was the re-entry vehicle (the ‘capsule’). The Service Module was the cylindrical section aft of the CM that provided propulsion, power, and consumables. The SM was jettisoned just before re-entry and burned up in the atmosphere. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/39 "2009-09-20T00:35:09Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > Quick question for **Cliffy** or **Johnny L.A.** : After the LM docked with the CSM after coming back from the Moon, did it come back to Earth, or did they separate from it again to come back to Earth? The only thing that comes back into the Earth’s atmosphere is the Command Module. On its own, the CM has no engine (just some small attitude thrusters), little sensory or telemetry equipment, and no way to stop its momentum except by hitting the ocean (although there are parachutes that slow it on the way down). You use the Service Module to navigate into position, you jettison the SM, and then you drop like a stone. This is what I was getting at earlier – the entire Saturn V/Apollo stack for a lunar landing mission is 363 feet tall. By the end of the mission, the spacecraft has shrunk by about 350 feet. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560/40 "2009-09-20T03:16:27Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > By the end of the mission, the spacecraft has shrunk by about 350 feet. Well, space is very cold. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-moon-landing-conspiracy-theorist/510560.md?page=3)