# damn the teacher who decided "me" was a dirty word **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 20, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811 "2011-12-20T03:55:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/41 "2011-12-21T01:50:22Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > The only thing worse than being pedantic is being pedantic and wrong, or possibly being pedantic and fat. Or being a baby rapist. And fat. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/42 "2011-12-21T03:20:57Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > That should be, “To what have you been up?” I believe you meant to say, “Up to what have you been?” > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Okay, how about “realator,” then? I watch a lot of real estate porn, and this is my nails-on-chalkboard mis-pronunciation. This is (usually) a double offense. “Realtor” (with a cap R) is a trademark of the National Association of Realtors, and only its members who have achieved that certification may use it. Everybody else is just a “real estate agent.” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/43 "2011-12-21T11:56:22Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Ultimately the grammarians will lose this fight, but it’s kind of fun to watch them shovel sand against the tide. I just wish it wasn’t so hard on people learning English as a second language. They may look to native speakers as a source of information on the language and the reality is most don’t know the rules explicitly, just implicitly. So they can’t give guidance in the way the learner needs it. Learning the rules of the language as way to perfect your usage is done in many other cultures, though, and so far it hasn’t led to our complete demise. But in one thing I agree with you: getting assistance from native speakers who aren’t familiar with the rules of their own language is a bitch. Getting as a teacher someone who doesn’t know the rules (s)he’s supposed to teach, but who will grade you against them (tests prepared by other people) is a whole pack of bitches. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/44 "2011-12-21T13:37:31Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Excellent point! Please do me the honor of wearing this genius cap. > > (Note that as a bearer of the Living Language, I have decided that “genius” should now be spelled “DUNCE,” replacing the antiquated form found in dusty dictionaries.) This is one of those hoary old saws directed by the unwittingly aggressively ignorant against descriptivism. Descriptivism doesn’t do away entirely with standards. Instead, it sets up some very simple standards: 1. Does your audience understand the concept that you mean the audience to understand? 2. Does your audience appreciate the aesthetic traits of your language you intend for them to appreciate? 3. Does your audience have to work no harder at understanding your intended concept or aesthetic than you intend for them to work? If you can answer “yes” to all three questions, your communication is successful. Everything else is subordinate to these goals. I’ve never seen a prescriptivist explain why things like the split infinitive rule, or proper use of the subjunctive in English, or pronunciation of the “r” in “February,” ought to take precedence over these goals. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/45 "2011-12-21T14:03:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve never seen a prescriptivist explain why things like the split infinitive rule, or proper use of the subjunctive in English, or pronunciation of the “r” in “February,” ought to take precedence over these goals. Pronouncing the first r in February makes it easier for many foreigners to understand what’s being said, but then, y’all also manage to mute ts… ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/46 "2011-12-21T14:22:24Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > On a somewhat related note, I’d like to add that no matter how many times people say it, I cannot “look myself in the mirror”. Whenever I hear this, it makes me want to stab myself in the eye. See what I did there? I stab him, I stab you, so I stab myself. Fine. But I look **at** him, I look **at** you, and so, I look **at** myself. > > That is all. On a somewhat related note, I’d like to add that no matter how many times the tourism commercials say it, I cannot “shop the stores” or “stay the night”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/47 "2011-12-21T14:23:24Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Pronouncing the first r in February makes it easier for many foreigners to understand what’s being said, but then, y’all also manage to mute ts… Yeah, yeah, yeah, get back to me when you stop lisping your c’s ;). Actually, your example fits well within the descriptivist guidelines. If your audience includes non-native speakers who learned English from written sources, then you’ll do well to pronounce the /r/ in February. However, in this rare situation, there may be another guideline: 1. Will your audience develop familiarity with a version of your language language to the extent that you intend it? This is a rare goal–it also applies to me in my role as a teacher–but when it comes up, it may contradict the other goals to some degree. For example, if I pronounce the /r/ in February, my foreign audience may understand me better, at the cost of misunderstanding how English is typically pronounced. I have to choose which goal is more important (or, more likely, just not consider the issue at all). ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/48 "2011-12-21T14:35:26Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > On a somewhat related note, I’d like to add that no matter how many times people say it, I cannot “look myself in the mirror”. Whenever I hear this, it makes me want to stab myself in the eye. See what I did there? I stab him, I stab you, so I stab myself. Fine. But I look **at** him, I look **at** you, and so, I look **at** myself. > > That is all. What’s wrong with “I looked him right in the eye?” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/49 "2011-12-21T14:35:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, yeah, yeah, get back to me when you stop lisping your c’s 😉 Since Spanish has no c phoneme, I can’t lisp it. If I lisped, I’d be lisping my ss. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/50 "2011-12-21T14:41:41Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > On a somewhat related note, I’d like to add that no matter how many times people say it, I cannot “look myself in the mirror”. Whenever I hear this, it makes me want to stab myself in the eye. See what I did there? I stab him, I stab you, so I stab myself. Fine. But I look **at** him, I look **at** you, and so, I look **at** myself. > > That is all. If you can’t look yourself in the mirror, how can you look yourself in the eye? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/51 "2011-12-21T14:50:22Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Since Spanish has no c phoneme, I can’t lisp it. If I lisped, I’d be lisping my ss. If I order dos thervethas in Spain, I’ll be understood, but those of us who learn Spanish from written sources think that’s bizarre. If you tell me you’ll visit me in Febyouary, you’ll be understood, but those of you who learn English from written sources think that’s bizarre. Same thing. In any case, of all the weird English spelling things to complain about, surely the missing /r/ in February is the least of your concerns? Don’t you want to start with the obnoxious “gh”? How easy do y’all find it to learn night, drought, draught, laugh, through, though, thought, and others I’m undoubtedly forgetting? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/52 "2011-12-21T15:10:49Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I think I might enjoy that (possibly a little too much), because if they’re mistakenly correcting _me_, then it is ON! Time to have a discussion about how if you remove John from the sentence, you wouldn’t say, “You can give that to I.” > > I heartily endorse this Pitting - it’s one of my current peeves, too, the ridiculous over-use of “myself.” Seconded. Having had object-subject pounded into my head with three different languages, when I hear “Mary and me went to the mall”, it’s like hearing fingernails scrape down a blackboard. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/53 "2011-12-21T15:38:42Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > I don’t want to get into yet another prescriptivist vs. descriptivist linguistics debate, but I have to point this out. > (various emphases mine) > > Okay, if you’re going to be pedantic, at least get the subject of your complaint right while you’re complaining. You’re complaining about people not following prescriptive grammar rules with regard to the two first person singular cases. > > In the quoted passage, the text in red is a compound subject. Pronouns in subjects, with limited exceptions that don’t apply here, should be in the subjective case. The underlined and enlarged word is a pronoun in the objective case. > > You wouldn’t say “Me will never do anything with myself.” You would instead say “I will never do anything with myself.” Thus, if you want to be prescriptive, the quoted passage should read: I’d have gone with the lack of capitalization (twice), but that’s just me. I always take the easy way out. ---
**Author:** ![minlokwat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minlokwat/32/2844_2.png) [@minlokwat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minlokwat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/54 "2011-12-21T16:18:18Z")
> [@Scarlett67](#): > > I believe you meant to say, “Up to what have you been?” That doesn’t sound right and I’m sure you would get a puzzled response if you actually used it. “To up what have you been?” works much better and the person you’re conversing with will understand immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/55 "2011-12-21T16:27:11Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > On a somewhat related note, I’d like to add that no matter how many times the tourism commercials say it, I cannot “shop the stores” or “stay the night”. I beg to differ: > [@Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary](#): > > Main Entry: [sup]2[/sup] **shop** > > transitive verb > **2 : to examine the stock or offerings of _shop the stores for Christmas gift ideas_** > > * * * > > Main Entry: [sup]3[/sup] **stay** > > transitive verb > **3 : to remain during _stayed the whole time_** ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/56 "2011-12-21T16:35:59Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Oh, yes, I work with a couple of those. > > SmartAss: “John or _I_ … .” > > And I reply: “Oh, really? Are you seriously telling me you want to use the Subjective Case when dealing with a Direct Object?” > > SmartAss: “Uhhh…?” > > And I quickly walk away, before they can see me gloating. Where did you learn English? I’ve never heard of the nominative referred to as the subjective. > [@Scarlett67](#): > > This is (usually) a double offense. “Realtor” (with a cap R) is a trademark of the National Association of Realtors, and only its members who have achieved that certification may use it. Everybody else is just a “real estate agent.” It’s worse than that. The National Association of Realtors expects everyone to capitalize the whole word: REALTOR. That’s why I tell them to go fuck themselves and call them estate agents. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Descriptivism doesn’t do away entirely with standards. Instead, it sets up some very simple standards: > > 1. Does your audience understand the concept that you mean the audience to understand? > 2. Does your audience appreciate the aesthetic traits of your language you intend for them to appreciate? > 3. Does your audience have to work no harder at understanding your intended concept or aesthetic than you intend for them to work? Unfortunately, it ignores the most important standard, which is: “[d]oes your audience want to stab you in the throat with a fork?” > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In any case, of all the weird English spelling things to complain about, surely the missing /r/ in February is the least of your concerns? Don’t you want to start with the obnoxious “gh”? How easy do y’all find it to learn night, drought, draught, laugh, through, though, thought, and others I’m undoubtedly forgetting? Well, it’s less jarring than _ya’ll_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/57 "2011-12-21T16:45:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Where did you learn English? I’ve never heard of the nominative referred to as the subjective. It’s pretty common to refer to the subjective, objective, and possessive cases in English, rather than nominative, accusative/dative, and genitive. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/58 "2011-12-21T16:46:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > \ > It’s worse than that. The National Association of Realtors expects everyone to capitalize the whole word: REALTOR. That’s why I tell them to go fuck themselves and call them estate agents.\ That would solve the “realator” problem. Oh, sorry, the “REALATOR!!!1!!” problem. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/59 "2011-12-21T16:48:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s pretty common to refer to the subjective, objective, and possessive cases in English, rather than nominative, accusative/dative, and genitive. I suppose those are a bit less needlessly confusing. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811/60 "2011-12-21T17:34:28Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s pretty common to refer to the subjective, objective, and possessive cases in English, rather than nominative, accusative/dative, and genitive. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I suppose those are a bit less needlessly confusing. Yes, because English just doesn’t have all of the inflections or the syntactic acrobatics that make such terminology necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-the-teacher-who-decided-me-was-a-dirty-word/606811.md?page=4)