# Dams Bursting in China **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 19, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870 "2001-01-19T15:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/1 "2001-01-19T15:10:05Z")
I was watching a documentary on the Learning Channel the other day about the ten greatest “technological” (man-made?) disasters of all time. They did short pieces on Chernobyl, the Challenger disaster, the Hindenburg, a Korean department store that collapsed, the Titanic, and a few other ones. The whole time, whenever they cut to commercial, they would say “Coming up: The largest man-made disaster of all time that killed almost a quarter of a million people and you’ve never heard anything about it! Stay tuned…” When they finally got to Big Disaster Numero Uno, it was about two gigantic dams in Hunan Province in China that burst due to careless engineering in the 1970’s. After the initial flood and ensuing epidemics of cholera, dysentery, and basically every other water-borne disease known to man, the final death toll was about 230,000. And the Chinese government managed to keep the details a secret for nearly thirty years. The Learning Channel can be entertaining sometimes, but it’s not PBS. Most of its documentaries are more sensationalist trash than sober, responsible TV reporting. In addition, this particular show reported that the Titanic was the first ship ever to make use of the “SOS” distress call, so it has credibility issues from the get-go. I did a few searches and came up with nothing. Did this happen? And was it as serious as they made it out to be? ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/2 "2001-01-19T15:21:16Z")
Yep, it’s real. As I understand it, the dams were built poorly and along the same river. When the first went, so went the second. And now, instead of a series of little dams, they’re building one huge gigantic one, flooding a huge area above and destroying ancient cities. And _when_ this dam fails, it’ll destroy a whole lot more. There’s a great deal of graft going on in China, but the gov’t doesn’t want to admit it. Bad concrete made the first two dams go. I think the megadam is going to have the same problems. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/3 "2001-01-19T18:09:59Z")
But _230,000 people_?!?!? What’s wrong with this world? Pardon me, but the Titanic took 1,500 measley people down with it!\* How can the Chinese dam thing not be a major historical event? How have a bunch of books not been written about it? How is there no Chinese Dam Historical Society! How come there’s not one lousy website devoted to the Chinese dam disaster? Not even a message board! No mailing list! I know the Chinese government is secretive, but come on, people! This happened like thirty years ago! - The _number_ of people is measley, compared with the Chinese thing. I don’t mean to imply that the people themselves were measley. ---
**Author:** ![rpinrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@rpinrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rpinrd)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/4 "2001-01-19T20:56:23Z")
This was real. Take a look at this MSNBC article re: the recent El Salvador quake. Scroll down to the bottom where MSNBC has provided a handy chart of the most devastating quakes. You will see that if the Chinese dam breaks were the result of low quality concrete, they were apparently aided by a magnitude 8 earthquake. > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. As for the mega dam that \*\*AWB[/] mentions, I believe the common name is the Three Gorges Dam. This does appear to be tragic, not only because of the loss of historic cites, but also because of the huge number of people who are being relocated (voluntarily?) because their village will now be under water. However, I think it is also clear that China needs to provide electricity to its citizens. Unfortunately, I don’t know enough (“anything” is a better word) about Chinese policy to even have an intelligent opinion on this one. ---
**Author:** ![rpinrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@rpinrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rpinrd)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/5 "2001-01-19T21:06:18Z")
Gaahhh!!! Stupid bolding. Stupid me for not doing it right. Anyway, here’s a link to an article on the Three Gorges Project. I don’t know if it is terribly slanted or not, you can make your own decisions. [http://www.igc.apc.org/hric/reports/3gorges.html](http://www.igc.apc.org/hric/reports/3gorges.html) See, I can **bold** all by myself. And, while I’m at it, that should be “sites” not “cites.” ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/6 "2001-01-19T21:47:35Z")
Now you see, this is what I mean about the Learning Channel. They didn’t mention anything about an earthquake. Or maybe I was getting a snack when they did. Did anybody else see this show? ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/7 "2001-01-19T21:52:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cuautemhoc \* > I don’t mean to imply that the people themselves were measley. \*\* Having Measles is really nothing to be ashamed of. 🙂 [offtopic] mea·sly (mzl) adj. mea·sli·er, mea·sli·est. 1. Slang. Contemptibly small; meager: gave the parking attendant a measly tip. 2. Infected with measles. [/offtopic] Why does one disaster stand out in our minds over another? Perspective, our ability to identify with the victims, and lack of information. We can relate to the 1500 victims of the Titanic more easily than 230k people from a distant foreign culture. After a point, the number of victims ceases to have any impact. When you heard the word genocide, the image is probably of 6 million murdered by the Nazis during WWII, not of the 20 million murdered by the Russian Communists, or 2 million by the Khmer Rouge, or any of the “lesser” incidents in recent history, Argentina, Rwanda, China … Is it any more interesting that more people die of old age on any given day, than are killed in floods? It’s a lot more sensational to die in a dramatic ship sinking than to perish from Cholera. ---
**Author:** ![rpinrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@rpinrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rpinrd)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/8 "2001-01-19T22:22:55Z")
Would someone with an actual brain please respond to the OP?! About five minutes after making my last post, I started reading articles about the Tangshan quake mentioned in the MSNBC article. I can find no reference in any of them to any of the deaths resulting from a burst dam. Apparently, the people of Tangshan all died in building collapses. I guess I just took your reference to 240,000 deaths in the 70’s and mentally matched that up with what I had read in the MSNBC article. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be any actual justification for that conclusion. This leads me to the dismal conclusion that there was more than one disaster, in the 70s, in China, that resulted in multi-hundred thousand deaths: one the dam break discussed on TLC and one the Tangshan quake. So, **cuautemhoc** don’t lose faith in TLC yet. Any network that will air Junkyard Wars is alright in my book. ---
**Author:** ![frolix8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f04885/32.png) [@frolix8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frolix8)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/9 "2001-01-19T22:35:23Z")
Other than the difference between a flood and an earthquake and a different year (the flood was said to be in 1975), the disaster cited by rpinrd and the “worst” distaster have similar numbers of casualties. Supposedly, during the monsoon the sluice gates were inoperable due to silting and inadequate maintenance. The excess water couldn’t be released and breached the dam. I can find no evidence of this disaster other than the “worst technological disasters” show, but they named the dam and location so I’ll check again the next time the show runs. ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/10 "2001-01-19T22:40:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rpinrd \* > \*\*Would someone with an actual brain please respond to the OP?! > \*\* Having a bad day? Yes, it happened. Here’s some info from “Dai Qing, Voice of the Yangtze River Gorges”. A report in opposition to the Three River Gorges project, found at [http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dmccubbi/chinadaiqingjan11\_97.htm](http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dmccubbi/chinadaiqingjan11_97.htm) > [@](#): > > [The River Dragon Has Come] … was the last ominous scream heard by the survivors of the world’s worst dam failure on August 5, 1975 just before the rising reservoir waters caused by a record typhoon burst the “indestructible” Banqiao dam resulting in the collapse of 63 other dams. Indeed! The “River Dragon” escaped with such demonic force that an estimated 230,000 people were drowned outright and some 11 million more were stricken by disease, food poisoning and famine in the aftermath. “The River Dragon Has Come” is also the title of Dai Qinq’s book on the subject. > [@](#): > > The book also profiles other shocking but still unpublished dam failures. Since 1949 over 86,852 dams of all sizes were built. By 1981, 3,200 of the reservoirs had burst through their restraining barriers and caused untold disasters. That is 3.7 percent of the dams in China collapsed compared to 0.6 percent in other countries. With so much information available on the internet that can be cross-checked, it’s a wonder that questions like these need to be posed. Happy? ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/11 "2001-01-19T22:52:39Z")
From a report entitles "The Impacts of Large Dams and the International Anti-Dam Movement " by Susanne wong of the International Rivers Network: > [@](#): > > … More than 13,500 people have been swept to their deaths by the roughly 200 dams outside China which have collapsed or been overtopped during the 20th century. According to ICOLD data, around 2.2 per cent of all dams built outside China before 1950 have failed and 0.5 per cent of dams built since then. Most of the failures are of small dams - which also make up the great majority of dams. China has an atrocious dam safety record - some 3,200 dams failed between 1950 and 1981, four per cent of the 80,000 classified dams in the country. > > By far the world’s worst dam disaster occurred when a freak typhoon hit Henan province in central China in August 1975, although the catastrophe was successfully airbrushed from history by the Chinese authorities for more than two decades. It is now believed that 85,000 people were killed in the floodwave resulting from the collapse of the Banqiao and Shimantan dams on the basin of the Huai River, a tributary of the lower Yangtze. A further 145,000 died in the epidemics and famine which struck the area in the ensuing weeks. > > Outside of China the two worst dam disasters occurred at the Macchu II Dam in Gujarat in 1972, and Vaiont Dam in the Italian Alps in 1963, each of which killed around 2,000 people. At Vaiont, a massive landslide into the reservoir caused a gargantuan wave to surge over the newly built dam. Vaiont Dam still stands, the fourth highest in the world, but with a rock-field rather than a reservoir behind it. It is only a matter of time before the next major dam collapse, especially as the world’s stock of dams steadily ages - some 5,000 large dams are now more than 50 years old, and the number and size of the dams reaching their half century is rapidly increasing found at [http://kfem.or.kr/engkfem/issue/damsympo/damsympo\_e3.html](http://kfem.or.kr/engkfem/issue/damsympo/damsympo_e3.html) As a side note, you can order “The River Dragon has Come” published in 1998, US$21.95 from Barnes and Noble: [http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/textbooks/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?isbn=0765602067](http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/textbooks/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?isbn=0765602067) ---
**Author:** ![rpinrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@rpinrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rpinrd)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/12 "2001-01-19T22:59:17Z")
Oops. In case that didn’t come out right, when I invoked someone with “an actual brian” to answer the OP, I was referring to my own previous mistakes. “Ready! Fire! Aim!” is never a good way to approach firing squad management or GQ answering. ---
**Author:** ![Adolph\_Peewee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Adolph\_Peewee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Adolph_Peewee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2001, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/13 "2001-01-20T00:30:39Z")
Population Control! it’s a conspiracy by the government in a radical attempt at controlling their ever burgeoning population! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2001, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dams-bursting-in-china/50870/14 "2001-01-20T00:59:06Z")
As to how the Chinese government managed to “airbrush” the event out of the history books, please read the following joke; Alexander the Great, Julius Ceaser and Napolean are standing on the Kremlin wall watching the Soviet Mayday parade of armaments go past below them. Alexander points to the tanks and exclaims; “With chariots like that all of Asia would have been mine!” Ceaser takes one look at the rocket launchers and says; “With fire arrows like that the Roman empire would never have fallen!” Napolean points over to a newpaper rack holding copies of Tass and softly mutters; “And if I had that no one would ever have found out about Waterloo!” Never forget the power of propaganda when a free press does not exist.