# Dan Rather and the forged letter
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 23, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879 "2008-02-23T20:15:50Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/1 "2008-02-23T20:15:50Z")
Most people know about the famous 60 Minutes exposee of George W Bush’s conduct as an Air Force Reservist during the Vietnam era, but the key dispute in the story - the “forged” letter, has all kinds of mystery to it. Some people belive that Rather and CBS forged the letter themselves, while other note the incredible speed in which previously unknown bloggers “debunked” the story - I think I heard that stories were out analysing the documents within an hour of the story airing, suggesting that the forged documents were planted.
This story was huge, but it seems to have dropped off the radar without any of it being settled. I’ve heard that to this day the letter(s) still haven’t been shown conclusively to be fake.
What’s the Straight Dope here? Was it a hachet job by CBS or did Karl Rove mastermind a huge sting? Was it really some anonymous guy with knowledge of typewriter fonts from the early 70’s who just happened to have a blog and just happened to watch 60 minutes that night?
Has any of this been resolved?
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/2 "2008-02-23T20:32:09Z")
[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane]
George W Bush’s conduct as an Air Force Reservist
[/QUOTE]
[del]Air Force Reservist[/del] National Guard Soldier
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/3 "2008-02-23T20:41:19Z")
Yes, it was pretyt much resolved. There were way too many patently impossible features on those “reports” for them to be true. Likewise, the bloggers were previously “unknown” only to the people who didn’t read their blogs, duh. And when they had something important to say, the blog-o-sphere did what it does best - spread the word.
The idea that isolated bloggers working indepentaly and sharing expertise would somehow be slower than a huge Karl Rove plot is so patently stupid it makes my eyebrows twitch.
Dan Rather & co. were never, to my knowledge, even remotely likely suspects. Some poined fingers int he direction of a Texas Democrat, which would about par for the course for Texas politicians, but it’s never been conclusively proven and cannot be. We know they are fakes, not who made them. Rather and his producer simply didn’t investigate properly, presumably because he wanted them to be real, and that was a huge enough problem for them.
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### Author:  [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/4 "2008-02-23T20:45:32Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Yes, it was pretyt much resolved. There were way too many patently impossible features on those “reports” for them to be true. Likewise, the bloggers were previously “unknown” only to the people who didn’t read their blogs, duh. And when they had something important to say, the blog-o-sphere did what it does best - spread the word.
The idea that isolated bloggers working indepentaly and sharing expertise would somehow be slower than a huge Karl Rove plot is so patently stupid it makes my eyebrows twitch.
Dan Rather & co. were never, to my knowledge, even remotely likely suspects. Some poined fingers int he direction of a Texas Democrat, which would about par for the course for Texas politicians, but it’s never been conclusively proven and cannot be. We know they are fakes, not who made them. Rather and his producer simply didn’t investigate properly, presumably because he wanted them to be real, and that was a huge enough problem for them.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah their hatred for GWB was/is so great that they exposed themselves as the false journalists they were and will always be remembered as. They and Jayson Blair can at least all cry into their beers together.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/5 "2008-02-23T20:58:31Z")
Well, not perzackly. The allegations contained in the documents are verified, the documents themselves were questionable. If the wild inventions of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were factual, it would still be a forgery.
But it would be churlish to deny you guys your tiny moment of vindication, you’ve had so few lately.
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### Author:  [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/6 "2008-02-23T20:59:28Z")
The most interesting thing about this is that from a few fuzzy screenshots of this they were able to demonstrate conclusively that it was a forgery in less than a week, yet with the physical yellowcake memo in their actual hands for months, not so much. Go figure.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/7 "2008-02-23T21:45:36Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Well, not perzackly. The allegations contained in the documents are verified, the documents themselves were questionable. If the wild inventions of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were factual, it would still be a forgery.
[/QUOTE]
“Fake but accurate,” huh?
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/8 "2008-02-23T22:02:41Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
“Fake but accurate,” huh?
[/QUOTE]
Information accurate, but made to look official. It’s _really_ too bad nobody has _ever_ bothered to explain this before in _any_ of the threads this has been brought up in before.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/9 "2008-02-23T22:36:31Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Information accurate, but made to look official. It’s _really_ too bad nobody has _ever_ bothered to explain this before in _any_ of the threads this has been brought up in before.
[/QUOTE]
But let’s be clear about how the information was determined to be accurate. A secretary who would’ve typed the original memo says she thought it was accurate, but it would’ve been 30 years since it was written and she was 86 years old when the story broke. It’s certainly possible that an 86 year old woman could remember a document that she typed 30 years ago, but I wouldn’t call that a slam dunk.
As for where the memos came from, they were given to CBS by Bill Burkett. Wikipedia has a good article on this: [Killian documents](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents)
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/10 "2008-02-23T22:44:55Z")
Not exactly. The story about Bush’s AWOL/desertion was well-established, via a number of other sources, _before this document ever appeared_. The problem is that the Bush diehards have used this forgery as proof, in their minds, that all the \*rest \* of the evidence was faked too.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/11 "2008-02-23T22:53:16Z")
Except that the contents of the memo did not concern being AWOL or deserting. From the wikipedia link:
> [@](#):
>
> Content of the memos
>
> The documents allegedly showed that Bush disobeyed orders while in the Guard, and had undue influence exerted on his behalf to improve his record, and included the following accusations:
>
> 1. An order directing Bush to submit to a physical examination. This order was not carried out.[18]
> 2. A note that Killian had grounded Bush from flying due to “failure to perform to USAF/TexANG standards,” and for failure to submit to the physical examination as ordered. Killian also requested that a flight inquiry board be convened, as required by regulations, to examine the reasons for Bush’s loss of flight status.[19] Independent documents confirm Bush was grounded for failure to complete a physical.[20]
> 3. A note of a telephone conversation with Bush in which Bush sought to be excused from “drill.” The note records that Bush said he did not have the time to attend to his National Guard duties because he had a campaign to do (the Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount in Alabama).[21]
> 4. A note (labeled “CYA” for “cover your ass”) claiming that Killian was being pressured from above to give Bush better marks in his yearly evaluation than he had earned. The note attributed to Killian says that he was being asked to “sugarcoat” Bush’s performance. “I’m having trouble running interference [for Bush] and doing my job.”
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/12 "2008-02-23T23:00:04Z")
All closely-related parts of the same basic story, **John**. Come on now.
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### Author:  [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/13 "2008-02-24T03:21:21Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Not exactly. The story about Bush’s AWOL/desertion was well-established, via a number of other sources, _before this document ever appeared_. The problem is that the Bush diehards have used this forgery as proof, in their minds, that all the \*rest \* of the evidence was faked too.
[/QUOTE]
What sources?
Looks like the diehard Bush haters fucked up royally.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/14 "2008-02-24T04:06:10Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan]
…Looks like the diehard Bush haters fucked up royally.
[/QUOTE]
Even as their numbers shrivel to less than 80% of the population, they stubbornly despise The Leader. Boy, some people, huh? Huh?
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/15 "2008-02-24T12:24:48Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan]
What sources?
[/QUOTE]
Here’s a good place to start.
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### Author:  [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2008, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/16 "2008-02-24T12:27:10Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan]
Yeah their hatred for GWB was/is so great that they exposed themselves as the false journalists they were and will always be remembered as. They and Jayson Blair can at least all cry into their beers together.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. What he said.
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### Author:  [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/17 "2008-02-24T23:50:55Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma]
Exactly. What he said.
[/QUOTE]
All journalists? All of the time?
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/18 "2008-02-25T00:03:43Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Not exactly. The story about Bush’s AWOL/desertion was well-established, via a number of other sources, _before this document ever appeared_. The problem is that the Bush diehards have used this forgery as proof, in their minds, that all the \*rest \* of the evidence was faked too.
[/QUOTE]
As someone who has been in the National Guard for the last 15 years I can assure you that missing drills does not equal desertion. Or AWOL. Those are _crimes_ that only apply if you are an active duty soldier.
Why do I even try?
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/19 "2008-02-25T00:13:38Z")
Was he absent? Yes. Without leave? Yes. For over 30 days? Yes.
Your point, sir?
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-rather-and-the-forged-letter/438879/20 "2008-02-25T00:33:33Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Was he absent? Yes. Without leave? Yes. For over 30 days? Yes.
Your point, sir?
[/QUOTE]
No. You are very wrong. You don’t get leave if you are not on active duty. You can’t be absent without something you don’t get in the first place. You also don’t have to go to every drill within a year for it to still count as a good year. I missed three months in a row because I was in the police academy. I was not AWOL. I did not desert. I still got credited for a good year towards retirement. The guard works different than active duty. You don’t know what you are talking about. No big deal, why should you unless you are in the national guard.
ETA: I will say again and for the last time, AWOL and desertion are crimes punishable under the UCMJ. They are very specific legal terms. For the most part Guardsmen that are not under orders for active duty do not fall under the UCMJ. Weekend drills do not count as active duty. They are labeled as IDT, _Inactive_ Duty Training. Thats it. I’m done.
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