# Dan Savage's "We can learn to ignore the bullsh!t in the Bible about gay people..." incident **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588 "2012-05-02T00:35:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/141 "2012-05-02T23:41:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Your cite says that _certain types_ of news coverage increase the rate of suicide, not “all types.” What types of coverage are dangerous? Does the type of coverage engaged by Savage fall under that classification? My understanding (which could very well be wrong) is that the sort of suicide cluster you’re talking about happens at a very local level, where all the kids involved knew each other personally (if not closely), and the suicides came from seemingly random backgrounds, not just “at risk” groups. I think **puddleglum** left out a link to the resource he was referring to because anyone reading it would be able to see the acrobatics he’s going through to flip the issue on it’s head and to blame Dan Savage for poor journalism. [http://dartcenter.org/content/recommendations-for-reporting-on-suicide](http://dartcenter.org/content/recommendations-for-reporting-on-suicide) The ‘It get better campaigns’ form and design are so in line with Dart’s findings I would find it hard to believe Savage didn’t consult experts in the field when creating it. If you compare their guild-lines you’ll find they line up point for point with Dart’s recommendations. If the school was looking for a journalistic expert in how to report on suicide cases Dan Savage would be an exemplary professional to go to, on that particular issue. That said I don’t like Dan Savage or his methods and probably wouldn’t hire him to speak unless very clear limitations were agreed on. However **puddleglum’s** criticism falls in the realm of ridiculous and I felt compelled to point it out. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/142 "2012-05-02T23:41:39Z")
If he had said “the Koran is full of shit”, that probably wouldn’t have gotten the reaction he was hoping for. We can all say, “well, they’re bigots, they deserve it! Why should we be civil? We need to be loud and proud and in your face!” That’s all very well…but does it WORK in this particular case? Children – even high school kids, aren’t special snowflakes, no, but they’re also not miniature adults. It’s not about sheltering them – it’s about what fucking _works_, or gets them to take it seriously. And another thing – are kids bashing each other for being gay because of what the Bible says, or simply because being gay is “different”, or “gross”? Kids don’t need religion to be bullies. And finally, if this walk-out was planned in advance, they were going to do so whether he mentioned the Bible or not. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/143 "2012-05-02T23:53:01Z")
Probably not original but I don’t have time to read the whole thread: I agree with him completely, and what he said is no more offensive than what Christians preach every week about how anyone who doesn’t agree with them is going to hell. One of the main arguments against atheism is that it has no absolute morality, but as Savage correctly notes, neither does Christianity. Christians pick and choose the parts of the Bible they accept or reject, or else they interpret it to agree with what they want to do anyway, like Paul Ryan saying the way to help the poor is to not help them, or some such bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/144 "2012-05-03T00:47:44Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] And another thing – are kids bashing each other for being gay because of what the Bible says, or simply because being gay is “different”, or “gross”? Kids don’t need religion to be bullies. [/QUOTE] This is a major and valid point. I’ve actually never really known a bully to _have_ an excuse other than “I don’t like Tommy- I’m bigger than Tommy- I’m going to hit Tommy- Fag’s a bad word and I suspect Tommy probably is one so I’ll do that while I’m bullying him”. (I’ve not only known several straight guys who were bullied and “fag” was usually what they were called even if there was nothing to remotely imply they were actually homosexual- it’s largely a word kids say that means ‘really nasty things’.) Religion is more often used to justify voting against gay marriage, or denying gays anti-discrimination rights, or refusing to allow Teh Gay to be _taught_ in school perhaps, but it’s not usually used by bullies as an excuse for bullying. Once in a while you’ll have somebody use it justify violence against an adult. (This week a minister used it to [advocate beating kids who seemed gay](http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/05/02/north-carolina-pastor-sean-harris-urges-parents-to-man-up-and-punch-effeminate-children/) but he is catching hell from many Christians as well (he claims it’s a joke) and even Savage would have to admit anything that blatant is very rare.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/145 "2012-05-03T00:50:23Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If he really was a journalist he would know that it is unethical to bring publicity to suicides. From thee DART center’s latest guide to covering suicides in the press Those might be Dart’s recommendations, but they do not form a general mandate in journalistic ethics. Journalists often disagree on decisions in which one might be _withholding_ information. There are many considered arguments that result in different opinions and different decisions on the proper way to proceed. But rejecting the recommendations of an organization like Dart does not mean you are not a true journalist. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/146 "2012-05-03T01:04:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Those might be Dart’s recommendations, but they do not form a general mandate in journalistic ethics. Journalists often disagree on decisions in which one might be _withholding_ information. There are many considered arguments that result in different opinions and different decisions on the proper way to proceed. But rejecting the recommendations of an organization like Dart does not mean you are not a true journalist. Right. There are situations in which a publication might decide not to cover a suicide for ethical reasons, but journalists can’t refuse to cover all suicides purely because an organization (even a reputable one) says suicide coverage is linked to copycat suicides. It’s something to keep in mind and it might set a very high bar for coverage of suicides, but you’d be hard-pressed to get journalists to agree that something simply should not be covered. The public’s interest and its right to know what is happening also have to be considered. Even if Savage’s work violated the Dart Center recommendations, that doesn’t make it inherently unethical from a journalistic standpoint- or any other, really. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/147 "2012-05-03T01:59:51Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Kind of hard to be a good thief once you’re crucified. You could be a good spotter, perhaps, but getaway and stealth aren’t going to be your strong suit. > > And actually he doesn’t repent so much as he admits his crime, which is sort of moot since he’s being crucified for it, and he asks Jesus in effect “take me with you”. Repentance would be to express sincere regret for it, which he does not do. Not so moot; his buddy doesn’t own up. And his repentance is implicit in his acceptance of responsibility for his crime. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/148 "2012-05-03T02:58:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I do have an issue with your cafeteria Christian slam. It is the willingness to ignore some of the more odious passages and just select from, say, the Gospels that makes it possible to bring more Christians around. Don’t slam the cafeteria, embrace it. Why should I or any atheist “embrace the cafeteria”? I’m trying to take down religion, move us toward a more progressive future where people don’t subscribe to that bullshit, not help make it more palatable so it will last longer. So for my purposes, highlighting rather than downplaying the “odious passages” is where it’s at. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/149 "2012-05-03T05:37:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But that’s not quite what it says. You’re well within your rights to ask them about the greedy, anal sex, and adultery, and frankly I would expect such a person to answer that he finds all of those sinful, too. So, we’ve established then that even ignoring queries about translations, there are a whole range of forms of behaviour that the bible states are as bad as homosexuality. And yet I’ve never seen a preacher calling for fornicators to be beaten, or the greedy to have it kicked out of them. But for homosexuality: > **[N.C. Preacher Advocates Beating The Gay Out Of Kids](https://www.buzzfeed.com/soogeeky/nc-preacher-advocates-beating-the-gay-out-of-kid-1igm)** > > Insane asshat preacher tells flock to punch their kid and beat up on their toddlers to 'Man them up' if they act gay. > Id like to Man him UP side the head. Don’t you see this as a double standard? I mean, if you like I can dig out other such stories, but I’d hope you’re not going to pretend this is a one off. There’s something about gay that seems to upset christians to a far greater degree than greed, or drunkenness, or whatever. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/150 "2012-05-03T05:40:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree that a person who uses the OT to justify his position that homosexual behavior is a sin is almost certainly guilty of a double standard. > > Now, let’s talk about the person that uses I Timothy 1:8. Is he guilty of a double standard? You’ve been going step by step on this, which is all to the good. I’ll jump ahead and give my view: You can make a Christian case against homosexuality, but it’s harder than it looks. Surprisingly. You can make a Christian case for tolerance of homosexuals but it’s harder than it looks. Much less surprisingly. Now I haven’t substantiated that yet. To really get a hold of this, we’d have to drill into the 7 clobber passages, plus the evident themes in the gospel of not being a sanctimonious prick, plus Matthew 19:12. The evidence is mixed and must be weighed and combined with care. Too bad nobody here is familiar with Greek. Then again, the stuff on divorce and heck being rich is pretty clear. It’s not all murk. Repeat link to discussion on clobber passages: [http://www.religioustolerance.org/homglance.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/homglance.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/151 "2012-05-03T05:50:01Z")
\*\*Hijack! \*\* > [@Clothahump](#): > > Sampiro, do you have any clue whatsoever how offensive statements like that are? I guess you don’t, or you don’t care: you just teed off on Savage for doing what you did. > > Please learn the difference between right wingers and bigoted religious whackjobs and use the appropriate term. > > Man, the worst move the right ever made was getting in bed with the religious loons. We stuck our collective dick in the crazy just to get votes and we’ve been paying for it ever since. > > Here: \<\\> Fixed it for ya. So Clothahump, you’re a right winger, but not a Christian Conservative and not a Libertarian _per se_, right? Or no? I mean all 3 groups are in the same bed, but I _sort of_ thought that self-identified right wingers were either Christian Conservative (loons-IMnsHO), Libertarian (fringies- IMnsHO) or Anti-Communists (less relevant today). I hadn’t thought much about the generic types. That’s my failing: there are plenty of Americans with severe conservatism who support neither Ron Paul nor Rick Santorum. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/152 "2012-05-03T08:50:15Z")
Worth pointing out that Dan Savage and his husband Terry started off their campaign as an attempt to talk people out of suicides, just a non-reciprocal way. As he put it, “You are ours to torture until you’re 18; when you’re 18, you will not be able to help those who are tortured.”. Nobody criticises the Samaritans for publicising their suicide helpline. Also, he points out a large difference between being bullied for perceived gayness and perceived nerdiness. He says the latter is on the receiving end of more bullying (at least in the case of his brother) - but they can go home to sympathetic and possibly nerdy parents. Very unlikely to be the case in the former situation. In fact, if the parents harbour bigoted views perpetuated by their hardline pastor, they may even sanction or partake in it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/153 "2012-05-03T12:46:32Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > He does take the time to decry lawyers though. If you’re thinking of Luke, I take that to mean he decried lawyers that weighed men down with burdens, not lawyers _qua_ lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/154 "2012-05-03T12:49:47Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > That’s my failing: there are plenty of Americans with severe conservatism who support neither Ron Paul nor Rick Santorum. I don’t know how severe I am, but that otherwise describes me. Paul’s dedication is perhaps admirable, but his vision is totally unworkable. And Santorum’s fidelity to Catholic principles is perhaps admirable, but same problem: totally unworkable as a leader of a secular country. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/155 "2012-05-03T12:52:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you’re thinking of Luke, I take that to mean he decried lawyers that weighed men down with burdens, not lawyers _qua_ lawyers. “And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers” Seems to be a pretty sweeping condemnation of lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/156 "2012-05-03T13:10:11Z")
> [@Gary Kumquat](#): > > Seems to be a pretty sweeping condemnation of lawyers. Or maybe it’s arguable? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/157 "2012-05-03T14:49:29Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Or maybe it’s arguable? That is a very divisive topic which has recently seen a number of pertinent rulings. I’d recommend bringing in specialist counsel for this issue. Unfortunately, that sort of expertise does not come cheap. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/158 "2012-05-03T15:20:10Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > With the exception of the “pansy ass” comment (I wouldn’t know its exact meaning in American English, hence what level of insult we’re talking about here) I’m a native English speaker who’s been around a while (I’m 50), and when I heard Savage refer to them as “pansy-assed,” it didn’t occur to me that the word can sometimes be used as an insult to gays. In my experience, the word means “weak” but in a decidedly insulting way, and because of that meaning, it had sometimes been used as an insult to more effeminate boys/men. It was only after I read about it as a news story that I heard someone criticize him for using a word that itself can be used for bullying. OK, maybe he could have used a different word, one that doesn’t have such an ambiguous pedigree, but it’s a far cry from using a word as blatantly offensive as “fag” for example. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/159 "2012-05-03T15:20:55Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I think **puddleglum** left out a link to the resource he was referring to because anyone reading it would be able to see the acrobatics he’s going through to flip the issue on it’s head and to blame Dan Savage for poor journalism. > [http://dartcenter.org/content/recommendations-for-reporting-on-suicide](http://dartcenter.org/content/recommendations-for-reporting-on-suicide) > The ‘It get better campaigns’ form and design are so in line with Dart’s findings I would find it hard to believe Savage didn’t consult experts in the field when creating it. If you compare their guild-lines you’ll find they line up point for point with Dart’s recommendations. > > However **puddleglum’s** criticism falls in the realm of ridiculous and I felt compelled to point it out. This is totally untrue, from the Link: > [@](#): > > "AVOID MISINFORMATION AND OFFER HOPE > Suicide is complex. There are almost always multiple causes, including psychiatric illnesses, that may not have been recognized or treated. However, these illnesses are treatable. Refer to research findings that mental disorders and/or substance abuse have been found in 90% of people who have died by suicide. > Avoid reporting that death by suicide was preceded by a single event, such as a recent job loss, divorce or bad grades. Reporting like this leaves the public with an overly simplistic and misleading understanding of suicide. " and "The potential for online reports, photos/videos and stories to go viral makes it vital that online coverage of suicide follow site or industry safety recommendations. " The guidelines make clear that suicide should be talked about as a mental health issue. “It gets better” is doing the exact opposite, it is trying to blame the suicides on a single cause, bullying. Their use of celebrities in the videos is especially dangerous because it sends the message that these kids can affect the world by commiting suicide. DARTS is not nearly the only organization to caution journalists against contributing to suicide contagion. Here is a[link](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00031539.htm)to an article by the CDC that has guidelines similar to DARTS. And just so no one can accuse me of twisting what the article says here is the CDC are ASPECTS OF NEWS COVERAGE THAT CAN PROMOTE SUICIDE CONTAGION [ul] [li]Presenting simplistic explanations for suicide. - “It gets better” does this by blaming the suicides solely on bullying.[/li][li]Engaging in repetitive, ongoing, or excessive reporting of suicide in the news. - They do this by uploading thousands of videos to youtube many of which are repetitive and cumulatively they are excessive.[/li][li]Providing sensational coverage of suicide. - Their coverage is very sensational and emotional.[/li][li]Reporting “how-to” descriptions of suicide. - Don’t know if they do this or not[/li][li]Presenting suicide as a tool for accomplishing certain ends. - By presenting themselves as inspired by the suicides, they send the message that suicide can help end bullying and achieve special rights for gays.[/li][li]Glorifying suicide or persons who commit suicide. - The public displays of grief that are in these videos are doing this.[/li][li]Focusing on the suicide completer’s positive characteristics. - These videos are about how tragic it was that these great kids were driven to suicide by bullying.[/li][/ul] There is information at the link about 12 different studies about how media coverage affects suicides rates. Most of them are 20 years old or more. There is no excuse for Savage and his group not to know about them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588/160 "2012-05-03T15:58:16Z")
Truly through the looking glass. People who point out the high number of kids who kill themselves because of homophobic bullying and try to give those kids help are doing some _real_ harm and are “inspired” by suicide and are putting out “the message that suicide can help end bullying and achieve special rights for gays”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dan-savages-we-can-learn-to-ignore-the-bullsh-t-in-the-bible-about-gay-people-incident/620588.md?page=9)