# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/241 "2010-02-06T00:15:10Z")
So yours is a higher level, academic view? It’s all about the principles eh? OK, as long as your principles are kept intact, the rest of us are just liberal douches for trying to think of more practical matters, like how to get better outcomes for population health. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/242 "2010-02-06T00:16:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I disagree. I care enough about poor people that I want them to be treated as humans and not as pets. The liberal position of absolving poor people from responsibility for themselves treats them as inhuman. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Private actors (such as charities) can do whatever they want. If they want to treat the poor like pets, then that’s fine by me, I’m not paying for it. The second post proves that you lied in the first one - if you did “care enough about poor people that I want them to be treated as humans and not as pets”, then you would not say “If they want to treat the poor like pets, then that’s fine by me”. We have now established beyond any doubt that you’re a liar and that you do **not** care about poor people. As surprises nobody, the _only_ difference between the situation you prefer and the one you hate is that in the one you like, “[you’re] not paying for it”. All you care about is your wallet - poor people are nothing to you. Unless you actually _do_ hate them - that possibility hasn’t been disproven yet. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/243 "2010-02-06T00:24:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The second post proves that you lied in the first one - if you did “care enough about poor people that I want them to be treated as humans and not as pets”, then you would not say “If they want to treat the poor like pets, then that’s fine by me”. We have now established beyond any doubt that you’re a liar and that you do **not** care about poor people. > > As surprises nobody, the _only_ difference between the situation you prefer and the one you hate is that in the one you like, “[you’re] not paying for it”. All you care about is your wallet - poor people are nothing to you. Unless you actually _do_ hate them - that possibility hasn’t been disproven yet. What RR is actually to stupid to understand is that if the country had more of its people insured it would be a positive boon to the economy. It would save us trillions in debt, increase productivity, improve American business’ ability to compete and save 45 thousand lives. Lives mean consumption, it means dollars changing hands, it means increased opportunity. He’s so stupid he’s willing to shoot himself in the foot because he thinks it will hurt less fortunate people. Honestly RR, is a completely worthless human being, and his opinions are based on childish hate instead of logic. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/244 "2010-02-06T00:42:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So yours is a higher level, academic view? It’s all about the principles eh? > > OK, as long as your principles are kept intact, the rest of us are just liberal douches for trying to think of more practical matters, like how to get better outcomes for population health. Buddy, you can think about how to get better outcomes for population health all you want, iwont chap my ass none. What does bother me is your insistence that the government be involved. And what really chaps it is your insistence that I don’t care about the problem just because I don’t think that the government is the solution. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/245 "2010-02-06T00:46:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > …I don’t think… QFT. I’ll add some substance on Edit: The government’s job is to regulate things. If we don’t regulate things people get cheated. The market requires regulation. It’s part of the equation. So I assume you’re okay with insurance regulations, right? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/246 "2010-02-06T00:53:43Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > What RR is actually to stupid to understand is that if the country had more of its people insured it would be a positive boon to the economy. It would save us trillions in debt, increase productivity, improve American business’ ability to compete and save 45 thousand lives. Lives mean consumption, it means dollars changing hands, it means increased opportunity. > > He’s so stupid he’s willing to shoot himself in the foot because he thinks it will hurt less fortunate people. > > Honestly RR, is a completely worthless human being, and his opinions are based on childish hate instead of logic. I dunno, I think I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he realizes that society as a whole would improve, but if the cost is that some of **his** money is diverted to helping a poor person, it’s worth it if society is damaged as a result. After all, _he’s_ wealthy enough to get through basically unscathed, and if **he’s** fine, then it’s better to damage all of society than to divert some of his money to helping a poor person. Or alternatively you might be right and he might just be a childish unthinking hate-filled moron. The fact that this remains a possibility is why it hasn’t yet been proven that he _actively_ hates poor people (as opposed to just not giving a shit about them). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/247 "2010-02-06T00:54:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The second post proves that you lied in the first one - if you did “care enough about poor people that I want them to be treated as humans and not as pets”, then you would not say “If they want to treat the poor like pets, then that’s fine by me”. We have now established beyond any doubt that you’re a liar and that you do **not** care about poor people. > > As surprises nobody, the _only_ difference between the situation you prefer and the one you hate is that in the one you like, “[you’re] not paying for it”. All you care about is your wallet - poor people are nothing to you. Unless you actually _do_ hate them - that possibility hasn’t been disproven yet. Christ. I was using shorthand in that second post. I just meant that I don’t care in the context of a discussion about the legitimate activities of government. I meant that I don’t care what private actors do with their money. Charities are free to do all sorts of shit I find stupid if they want to (eg, Whale Wars). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/248 "2010-02-06T00:54:51Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Buddy, you can think about how to get better outcomes for population health all you want, iwont chap my ass none. What does bother me is your insistence that the government be involved. And what really chaps it is your insistence that I don’t care about the problem just because I don’t think that the government is the solution. I believe you’ve already made it clear _why_ you don’t want the government involved - they’re the only one you can’t refuse to give money to. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/249 "2010-02-06T00:58:35Z")
**begbert2** - great post\*. I recall arguing with **Rand Rover** in that [awesome thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=524753) last summer. Fun up to a point, then once he’s backed into a logical corner, very disappointing. \*ETA: post #242 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/250 "2010-02-06T01:01:42Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > QFT. > > I’ll add some substance on Edit: > > The government’s job is to regulate things. If we don’t regulate things people get cheated. The market requires regulation. It’s part of the equation. So I assume you’re okay with insurance regulations, right? Yes. I think that is fully within the legitimate state activity of protecting people from intentional wrongdoers (ie, like having police). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/251 "2010-02-06T01:19:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > It’s about the legitimate activities of government. Providing health care is not one of them. The “legitimate activities of government” are whatever we want them to be. You can stomp your little feet all you want, but you’re not the one who gets to make the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/252 "2010-02-06T01:36:50Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The “legitimate activities of government” are whatever we want them to be. You can stomp your little feet all you want, but you’re not the one who gets to make the rules. Agreed (of course)–the voters decide, within the bounds of the constitution. And polls show that voters aren’t buying the stink that Obama’s selling with HRC. So, the current bill is an example of a minority trying to impose its will on the majority. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/253 "2010-02-06T01:46:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Agreed (of course)–the voters decide, within the bounds of the constitution.. So you agreed that Medicare and Social Security are already “legitimate activities of government”? And that UHC will also be a “legitimate activity of government” if approved through democratic means? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/254 "2010-02-06T02:29:38Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > **begbert2** - great post\*. > > I recall arguing with **Rand Rover** in that [awesome thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=524753) last summer. Fun up to a point, then once he’s backed into a logical corner, very disappointing. > \*ETA: post #242 You’re just mad because **RR** owned your ass in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/255 "2010-02-06T02:37:27Z")
Well, I can only say that **Rand Rover** has thoroughly convinced me that nothing less than extending Medicare, or something like it, to the entire population is definitely the way to go. So thanks for that. Also, I’ve got a couple of pet poor people, and don’t knock it. They’re very affectionate and playful. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/256 "2010-02-06T03:20:51Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I believe you’ve already made it clear _why_ you don’t want the government involved - they’re the only one you can’t refuse to give money to. Well, yes, that is absolutely correct, just not for the reason you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/257 "2010-02-06T03:36:19Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Agreed (of course)–the voters decide, within the bounds of the constitution. And polls show that voters aren’t buying the stink that Obama’s selling with HRC. So, the current bill is an example of a minority trying to impose its will on the majority. Not even close. Many of the people who don’t like the current bill are liberals who think it does not go far enough, and is just a giveaway to the insurance companies. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/258 "2010-02-06T03:37:05Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > You’re just mad because **RR** owned your ass in that thread. Man, I just read through some of that thread–fun trip down memory lane. Rubystreak? You still around? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/259 "2010-02-06T03:39:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Not even close. Many of the people who don’t like the current bill are liberals who think it does not go far enough, and is just a giveaway to the insurance companies. I didn’t say that the low poll numbers for Obama’s HCR meant that fiscal conservatives are a majority–I just said that it means that proponents of Obaman’s HCR are a minority. I of course agree with you that some opponents don’t agree with me and in fact disagree with me more than people in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/260 "2010-02-06T03:43:05Z")
You did imply that if health care reform passed, it represented the minority imposing their will on the majority, when the truth is the majority favor health care reform with a public option. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=14)