# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/281 "2010-02-06T22:06:31Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > RR hasn’t questioned his beliefs that I’ve ever noticed. Perhaps I’ve missed where he was persuaded off his mindless ideological ground by reasoned debate. > > As for my bullshit ideology, I’d be happy to defend it with real logical arguments if you have any particulars. This thread is already a train-wreck. Yeesh, you have a different opinion than me, and when I don’t automatically change my mind to agree with you after reading one of your posts, you think I’m a mindless ideologue. Which one of us is being stupid here, now? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/282 "2010-02-06T22:13:01Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yeesh, you have a different opinion than me, and when I don’t automatically change my mind to agree with you after reading one of your posts, you think I’m a mindless ideologue. Which one of us is being stupid here, now? That would be you. Glad I could help. 😃 Also, I didn’t say one. I was talking about how no number of posts can convince you of something. Because you don’t want to allow for the possibility that what you’ve decided is true might be wrong. This is just my reading of you, of course. I could stand to be corrected. I doubt I will be though. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/283 "2010-02-06T22:45:41Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’d agree with you if you said that the ROLE of government or the amount of Government in healthcare is not obvious. However, there is some evidence that government should at least have a place in healthcare in the first place. The role of government can be quantified on a scale from 0 to 9. What number to pick is not obvious. > [@](#): > > I suggest you compare countries where there government is involved in healthcare with those where the government has no place at all. For the first group, you could look at Great Britain, France Germany, Sweden, Italy, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or many others. For the second group, where governments have no place at all in healthcare, you could look at… I’m not sure - you pick. Not the USA in it’s current state though, because there is already lots of government involvement in healthcare. > > Compare the population health in these two comparison groups. > > This may give you some evidence about whether or not governments should have a place in healthcare. Ask yourself why it is that there are not many examples you can find of first world countries with no government involvement in healthcare. This is not a good argument. What you are suggesting is that we do some comparative statics between countries that have high and low governmental intervention in HC. The “comparative” part holds, but the “statics” part doesn’t. It requires that all things be equal between the comparanda except the variable of interest, government involvement in HC. As it turns out, all things aren’t equal. A comparison such as this does not yield valid inferences because the perceived effects, differences in provision of HC, do not necessarily flow from government involvement but could from other factors. When you find a country that looks exactly like the US (or close enough for government work) but has high governmental involvement in HC, then we will have an experiment. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/284 "2010-02-06T23:52:27Z")
I agree that you could not look at countries and draw a statistically valid conclusion about what the “right amount” of government support of healthcare would be for all countries. You are correct in that there are far too many variables. However it is a good exercise for “hard” libertarians like **Rand Rover** , who appear to put the role of government at “0” on a scale of 0 - 9 for healthcare. It could illustrate that there are few countries that have a value of “0” , and those that do are not really that pleasant to live in. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/285 "2010-02-07T00:04:10Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It could illustrate that there are few countries that have a value of “0” , and those that do are not really that pleasant to live in. While this is true, it would not tell us that these countries would pick anything other than zero even if they were more pleasant places to live on all other dimensions. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/286 "2010-02-07T00:17:13Z")
If all countries where the government is involved in healthcare at high levels (7,8,9) are nice places to live (rated by various factors - you can look up surveys on this), while all countries where government is not or minimally involved in healthcare (0 or 1) are shitholes… I suggest that this gives us some valid information about the topic of government involvement in healthcare. In this, very real, practical dimension ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/287 "2010-02-07T01:10:06Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > If all countries where the government is involved in healthcare at high levels (7,8,9) are nice places to live (rated by various factors - you can look up surveys on this), while all countries where government is not or minimally involved in healthcare (0 or 1) are shitholes… > > I suggest that this gives us some valid information about the topic of government involvement in healthcare. In this, very real, practical dimension Look, I don’t actually disagree with you that the government has a role to play in healthcare that is probably above 6. But the point I am trying to make is that this cannot be inferred from making straightforward comparisons between countries. I can cook up a bunch of metrics lots of countries with high qualities of life have in common that aren’t even prima facie stupid. But it doesn’t make them valid inferences or, dare I say, true. In this very real, practical dimension. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/288 "2010-02-07T08:33:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Agreed (of course)–the voters decide, within the bounds of the constitution. And polls show that voters aren’t buying the stink that Obama’s selling with HRC. So, the current bill is an example of a minority trying to impose its will on the majority. :dubious: The [polls](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34256113/) show the voters want a plan that goes a **lot** further than the one on the table. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/289 "2010-02-08T03:53:05Z")
Detroit local news just ran a health story. A former weatherman for the station quit to spend more time with his family. He gave up the health coverage. His doctor said he needed a colonoscopy. He priced Detroit places and it ran from 3500 bucks to over 9000 for a person without insurance. He went to Costa Rica for it. The cost was 350. He paid for a vacation . Did some golfing and tourism. And came back way, way ahead. The Costa Rican doctor attends 3 American seminars every year. They use the same equipment. A heart valve operation was 200,000 in the US. He could get it for 2 grand in India. Our system is robbing us blind. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/290 "2010-02-08T18:31:37Z")
**Costa Rica** : _Come for the camera up your ass, stay for the experience!_ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/291 "2010-02-08T18:43:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: The [polls](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34256113/) show the voters want a plan that goes a **lot** further than the one on the table. That was December 3rd, when the majority of voters polled still said they wanted Coakley in the Senate. If your theory is correct, Congress would have done it. The reason Congress couldn’t be forced into line was the voters’ push-back. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/292 "2010-02-08T18:49:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That was December 3rd, when the majority of voters polled still said they wanted Coakley in the Senate. > > If your theory is correct, Congress would have done it. The reason Congress couldn’t be forced into line was the voters’ push-back. What voter push-back? That had nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with Martha Coakley being ignorant about Boston sports. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/293 "2010-02-08T19:16:57Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > What voter push-back? That had nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with Martha Coakley being ignorant about Boston sports. And running a horrible campaign. She seemed pretty disinterested. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/294 "2010-02-08T19:40:12Z")
Our medical system model is fundamentally flawed. A for profit health care system will result in higher costs and less care available. There are no forces to bring down costs. Increasing profits is achieved by denying coverage, increasing prices and getting the cheapest help possible. Doctors are part of the management and get way overpaid. Insurance companies suck as much money as they can out of it too. There is no competition. We pretend we love competition in America while we allow merger after merger, until we have few companies providing services and products. The end result is skeleton crews, doing more and more work for less and less pay. Soon we will offshore medical care. They will ship your sick butt off to a 3rd world country to get a larger profit margin. They are not blind to how much cheaper other countries can provide care. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/295 "2010-02-09T00:04:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Soon we will offshore medical care. They will ship your sick butt off to a 3rd world country to get a larger profit margin. They are not blind to how much cheaper other countries can provide care. Ummm… If they did that, why would people not just cut out the middleman and arrange it themselves for a lot cheaper, thus cutting severely into their profits? Folks do it right now already. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/296 "2010-02-09T01:46:00Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > What voter push-back? That had nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with Martha Coakley being ignorant about Boston sports. What’s your evidence for that proposition? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/297 "2010-02-09T02:08:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What’s your evidence for that proposition? [How Red Sox Nation seized control of the Martha Coakley-Scott Brown race - masslive.com](http://blog.masslive.com/redsoxmonster/2010/01/how_red_sox_nation_seized_cont.html) It was a national story. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/298 "2010-02-09T03:01:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … The reason Congress couldn’t be forced into line was the voters’ push-back. Oh. Seems to me that young fellow ran on health care reform, did pretty well for himself, too. Was in all the papers. But now the voters are “pushing back”? They didn’t mean it? Didn’t realize it meant a socialist agenda, but now that they are shown the true horror of the thing, they flee in panic? Don’t suppose all that money the industry spent had anything to do with it? Don’t suppose that the fact that they own all the Republicans and half the Democrats has any bearing? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/299 "2010-02-09T03:02:52Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > What voter push-back? That had nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with Martha Coakley being ignorant about Boston sports. Uh, he ran on being the 41st vote. The Dems even tried to [use it against him.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoN0POyQPtU) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/300 "2010-02-09T03:12:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Uh, he ran on being the 41st vote. He also ran on being the proud driver of a pick-up truck. Why would you conclude one contributed more to the success of the campaign than the other? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=16)