# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/301 "2010-02-09T03:13:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh. Seems to me that young fellow ran on health care reform, did pretty well for himself, too. Was in all the papers. But now the voters are “pushing back”? They didn’t mean it? Didn’t realize it meant a socialist agenda, but now that they are shown the true horror of the thing, they flee in panic? Pretty close, yes. They elected that young feller because they were sick of Bush, and because in the abtract, his plans were very enticing: all this, for free! But when it came time to actually define who would pay for the free stuff, and people began to relaize that oh shit it was they themselves shouldering the load for their own care and a fraction of the freeloading parasites, then yes, they began to push back. Do I reaaly need to cite Obama’s rapidly bottoming-out approval numbers, the distinct gulf between November 2008 and now for Mr. Hope & Change? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/302 "2010-02-09T03:17:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do I reaaly need to cite Obama’s rapidly bottoming-out approval numbers… Bottoming out? Bush would have kissed Ann Richards’ cold, dead corpse square on the mouth for such numbers! ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/303 "2010-02-09T03:24:26Z")
Apparently an election for a single Senate seat equals a national backlash against healthcare reform. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/304 "2010-02-09T04:23:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Bottoming out? Bush would have kissed Ann Richards’ cold, dead corpse square on the mouth for such numbers! Please be advised that your colorful analogy license is suspended, pending review. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/305 "2010-02-09T04:27:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Pretty close, yes. They elected that young feller because they were sick of Bush, and because in the abtract, his plans were very enticing: all this, for free! > > But when it came time to actually define who would pay for the free stuff, and people began to relaize that oh shit it was they themselves shouldering the load for their own care and a fraction of the freeloading parasites, then yes, they began to push back. > > Do I reaaly need to cite Obama’s rapidly bottoming-out approval numbers, the distinct gulf between November 2008 and now for Mr. Hope & Change? So all that money those guys spent, that had nothing to do with it? All those contributions to “grass roots” organizations and lobbyists, just pissed it away, did they? I guess they must have thought it was a good idea at the time, huh? But it turns out, no effect. Maybe those MBA guys oughta step aside, if they’re going to totally fuck up like that, spend a buttload of cash for nothing. I mean, really, could hippies do worse even if we just played hacky-sack all day and didn’t make bone-head decisions like that? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/306 "2010-02-09T04:58:55Z")
Obama was trapped into an expensive mess that Bush left him. he invested billions to get the banking repaired and theoretically working again. I have heard him address the deficit a few times and he actually has plans to deal with it. Bush, Cheney, and Reagan said "deficits don’t matter’. Why do people like Bricker develop blindness when it comes to spending. The repubs cut taxes and spend their brains out. This is somehow good. Clinton fixed the deficit. Bush deliberately fucked it up. Now Obama said he will deal with it again. Yet Bush said deficits don’t matter. That means the repubs have no standing to bitch about deficits. None, zero ,zip. As a matter of fact. The health care ,if the repubs don’t fuck it up, will bring down the cost of medical care in America . ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/307 "2010-02-09T04:59:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But when it came time to actually define who would pay for the free stuff, and people began to relaize that oh shit it was they themselves shouldering the load for their own care and a fraction of the freeloading parasites, then yes, they began to push back. I think you may be experiencing a little wishful thinking here. [Recent polls](http://www.gallup.com/poll/125327/Majority-Favors-Suspending-Work-Healthcare-Bill.aspx) indicate that most Americans are still in favor of healthcare reform, even if they don’t think it should be the most important priority right now. 46% feel it should be a major priority but other problems should be addressed first, while 32% feel that even in the current crisis it should be the top priority. That’s over three-quarters of Americans who still think healthcare reform is very important. The teabagger types are going to continue pushing against healthcare reform as loudly as they can, but there’s no evidence to suggest that they’ll get anything like a majority of Americans to agree with them. By all the opinion trends we’ve seen over the last several years, it seems safe to conclude that some form of UHC is definitely coming at some point. Most people hate the uncertainty and instability of the present system worse than they hate the idea of being roped in to help support a few “freeloading parasites” (who but for the grace of God could easily be them someday). ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/308 "2010-02-09T05:36:07Z")
[butting in after reading sections of the thread] If we do not improve our health system in ways that deliver relevant care to more, if not all, citizens, then I must ask: Exactly what, then, do we do with the proles? Let them lie down and croak? I sense moral hazard down this path. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/309 "2010-02-09T06:01:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Mr. Hope & Change? Awe come on now Bricker ya know ya really what to talk about all that hopey changey stuff now donchya? Ya don’t need to keep goin’ on with all the ivory tower syntax. Talk to the peoples like they wants to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/310 "2010-02-09T06:03:52Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > [butting in after reading sections of the thread] > > If we do not improve our health system in ways that deliver relevant care to more, if not all, citizens, then I must ask: Exactly what, then, do we do with the proles? Let them lie down and croak? I sense moral hazard down this path. Bricker has already answered this question, they should die because it’s God’s will. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/311 "2010-02-09T12:53:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I think you may be experiencing a little wishful thinking here. [Recent polls](http://www.gallup.com/poll/125327/Majority-Favors-Suspending-Work-Healthcare-Bill.aspx) indicate that most Americans are still in favor of healthcare reform, even if they don’t think it should be the most important priority right now. 46% feel it should be a major priority but other problems should be addressed first, while 32% feel that even in the current crisis it should be the top priority. That’s over three-quarters of Americans who still think healthcare reform is very important. > > The teabagger types are going to continue pushing against healthcare reform as loudly as they can, but there’s no evidence to suggest that they’ll get anything like a majority of Americans to agree with them. Your poll is that evidence. According to your cite, “the majority of Americans (55%) favor Congress’ putting the brakes on its current healthcare reform efforts and considering alternatives that can obtain more Republican support.” So, okay, yeah, ‘healthcare reform’, sure, but (a) _ **not** _ the stuff the Dems are currently pushing; instead, they want (b) the stuff that would obtain Republican support. Now, I could name a number of alternatives that Republicans have talked about supporting; they’ve mentioned dropping interstate barriers to competition among insurers, so that it’s more like Geico versus Progressive versus Allstate versus Nationwide versus Esurance versus State Farm versus USAA all competing to insure my car. And they’ve said that coupling such an approach with tort reform could go a long way. And they’ve – well, they’ve said a _ **lot** _ of things, really, but keep railing against UHC in general and the plan a majority now wants to put the brakes on in particular. And from that, you extrapolate this: > [@](#): > > it seems safe to conclude that some form of UHC is definitely coming at some point. Why? That’s not one of the “alternatives that can obtain more Republican support.” What does your poll say? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/312 "2010-02-09T15:27:43Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > Bricker has already answered this question, they should die because it’s God’s will. Ooooo. There are always such great results to be had when God is introduced into policy. I’ve been reading up a little on Merovingian justice… did you know that 1500 years ago in France a legal dispute could be settled with a duel, as God would intervene in a duel to let the best man win? Actually Gibbon says it better _digs…_ here’s a quote! > [@](#): > > The civil and military professions, which had been separated by Constantine, were again united by the Barbarians. The harsh sound of the Teutonic appellations was mollified into the Latin titles of Duke, of Count, or of Praefect; and the same officer assumed within his district the command of the troops and the administration of justice. But the fierce and illiterate chieftain was seldom qualified to discharge the duties of a judge; which required all the faculties of a philosophic mind laboriously cultivated by experience and study; and his rude ignorance was compelled to embrace some simple and visible methods of ascertaining the cause of justice. In every religion, the Deity has been invoked to confirm the truth or to punish the falsehood of human testimony; but this powerful instrument was misapplied and abused by the simplicity of the German legislators. The party accused might justify his innocence by producing before their tribunal a number of friendly witnesses who solemnly declared their belief or assurance that he was not guilty. According to the weight of the charge, this legal number of compurgators was multiplied; seventy-two voices were required to absolve an incendiary or assassin: and when the chastity of a queen of France was suspected, three hundred gallant nobles swore without hesitation that the infant prince had been actually begotten by her deceased husband. The sin and scandal of manifest and frequent perjuries engaged the magistrates to remove these dangerous temptations, and to supply the defects of human testimony by the famous experiments of fire and water. These extraordinary trials were so capriciously contrived that in some cases guilt, and innocence in others, could not be proved without the interposition of a miracle. Such miracles were really provided by fraud and credulity; the most intricate causes were determined by this easy and infallible method, and the turbulent Barbarians who might have disdained the sentence of the magistrate submissively acquiesced in the judgment of God. > > But the trials by single combat gradually obtained superior credit and authority among a warlike people who could not believe that a brave man deserved to suffer, or that a coward deserved to live. Both in civil and criminal proceedings, the plaintiff or accuser, the defendant, or even the witness were exposed to mortal challenge from the antagonist who was destitute of legal proofs; and it was incumbent on them either to desert their cause or publicly to maintain their honor in the lists of battle. They fought either on foot or on horseback, according to the custom of the nation; and the decision of the sword or lance was ratified by the sanction of Heaven, of the judge, and of the people. This sanguinary law was introduced into Gaul by the Burgundians; and their legislator Gundobald condescended to answer the complaints and objections of his subject Avitus. “Is it not true,” said the king of Burgundy to the bishop, “that the event of national wars and private combats is directed by the judgment of God; and that his providence awards the victory to the juster cause?” By such prevailing arguments, the absurd and cruel practice of judicial duels, which had been peculiar to some tribes of Germany, was propagated and established in all the monarchies of Europe, from Sicily to the Baltic… The tribunals were stained with blood, perhaps, of innocent and respectable citizens; the law, which now favors the rich, then yielded to the strong; and the old, the feeble, and the infirm were condemned either to renounce their fairest claims and possessions, to sustain the dangers of an unequal conflict, or to trust the doubtful aid of a mercenary champion. This oppressive jurisprudence was imposed on the provincials of Gaul who complained of any injuries in their persons and property. Whatever might be the strength or courage of individuals, the victorious Barbarians excelled in the love and exercise of arms; and the vanquished Roman was unjustly summoned to repeat in his own person the bloody contest which had been already decided against his country. The question being: Are we barbarians ourselves, or not? I mean, besides **Rand Rover**. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/313 "2010-02-09T15:28:36Z")
I \<3 **Rand Rover** the way I \<3 **Glenn Beck** , and this thread was worth reading all 8 pages if for nothing other than “insatiable anus”. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/314 "2010-02-09T15:38:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But when it came time to actually define who would pay for the free stuff, and people began to relaize that oh shit it was they themselves shouldering the load for their own care and a fraction of the **freeloading parasites,** then yes, they began to push back. bolding mine And people wonder where the idea that fiscal conservatives hate the poor comes from. That’s right Bricker. Everyone who has had their health insurance cancelled is a freeloading parasite. The person who works 12 hours a day at two jobs, neither of which has a health plan? Freeloading parasite. > [@Bricker](#): > > Mr. Hope & Change? That’s “Hopey-Changey”. Keep up with Sarah’s talking points, could ya? \ But not to worry. The Republicans are determined to prevent change of any kind with obstructionist tactics. Good change, bad change - doesn’t matter. Obstruct, obstruct, obstruct. And they are doing a pretty good job of crushing any hope that people had. So. Success is at hand for you! It’s fascinating how you want the country to fail, just because your “team” is not in power. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/315 "2010-02-09T16:45:39Z")
Don’t you absolutely love seeing lawyers complain about parasitism? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/316 "2010-02-09T18:33:09Z")
And the word for executives of health insurance companies that deny medicial treatment to a cancer stricken child? [http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/09/insurer-boy-cancer/](http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/09/insurer-boy-cancer/) “Rich”? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/317 "2010-02-09T18:46:28Z")
Hey EP, whether or not Bricker hates poor people has nothing to do with whether all fiscal conservatives hate poor people as an inherent part of their philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/318 "2010-02-09T18:48:47Z")
That’s why I would never say that I agree with the idea that all fiscal conservatives hate poor people. Just that I can understand how this over-generalization might form. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/319 "2010-02-09T18:53:12Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Hey EP, whether or not Bricker hates poor people has nothing to do with whether all fiscal conservatives hate poor people as an inherent part of their philosophy. Just like, if someone called “Rand Rover” acts like a constant dick, people might just get the misconceptions that all Randians are constant dicks. Well, that might still be true. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/320 "2010-02-09T18:55:18Z")
> [@fubbleskag](#): > > I \<3 **Rand Rover** the way I \<3 **Glenn Beck** , and this thread was worth reading all 8 pages if for nothing other than “insatiable anus”. 🙂 Giraffe sorta just slinked off after that, very disappointing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=17)