# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/361 "2010-02-12T05:26:45Z")
[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/11/wellpoint-rate-hike-insur_n_458336.html) Here is an example of what they are up to. I am sure some of you find this just business . But it is also health care. How many people do you suppose will not be able to afford insurance. But they are little people and do not matter. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/362 "2010-02-12T10:52:10Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > No ,he left them the same. Therefore the gap got bigger and then cut taxes for the rich again and it got still bigger. He also shovelled a lot of government money to companies like Halliburton, KBR and Blackrock (to name the easiest ones to recall). The rich suck a lot more from the government teat than the poor do. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/363 "2010-02-12T11:53:34Z")
Well, after all, it is theirs! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/364 "2010-02-12T12:36:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Bush cut taxes for the rich. Did he raise them on the poor? > > No ,he left them the same. Therefore the gap got bigger and then cut taxes for the rich again and it got still bigger. The gap betwixt the rich and poor is like it was before the depression. It has only been like this once in our history. Do you think it is a good thing? Unless you are Rover it is unlikely. The question isn’t whether I think it’s a good thing – not yet, anyhow. You stated that the largest **re** distribution of wealth occurred under Bush. You stated that the Repubs always **re** distribute wealth. You stated that the Repubs like to force the poor to give their money to the rich. From my perspective, cutting taxes for the rich without raising them on the poor isn’t forcing the poor to give their money to the rich; so long as “he left them the same” is the answer you lead off with, no such **re** distribution is going on. Possibly you disagreed, and I wanted to address that question first. If that’s out of the way, then, yeah, let’s ask whether it’s a good thing – er, compared to what? Okay, there’s a gap between rich and poor. I’m not crazy about it. Some possible cures are probably worse than the disease. Some probably aren’t. Which particular alternative do you figure is better? > [@](#): > > I am sure some of you find this just business . But it is also health care. How many people do you suppose will not be able to afford insurance. But they are little people and do not matter. Again: while they matter, that’s not an automatic trump against all possible counterarguments. Some people won’t be able to afford insurance, so – let’s force doctors to treat them at no charge? Some people won’t be able to afford insurance, so – let’s raise taxes on some other people to buy that insurance? It’s not just about pointing at something that’s bad. It’s about providing a solution that’s less bad. > [@](#): > > He also shovelled a lot of government money to companies like Halliburton, KBR and Blackrock (to name the easiest ones to recall). The rich suck a lot more from the government teat than the poor do. They pay in more, too. (And, more to the point, they pay in _ **something.** _) As per gonzomax’s answer, it’s _ **not** _ like Bush raised taxes on the poor in order to buy goods and services from corporations; some poor folks don’t pay any federal taxes, and yet benefit from federal spending – from the government teat filled by the rich, with money that can then be **re** distributed to the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/365 "2010-02-12T14:33:12Z")
Yeesh, gonzo. You know, I’ve had farts that sounded more intelligent than all of your posts combined. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/366 "2010-02-12T19:03:21Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Half-White too, the same way! The top half or the bottom half? > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Note to self: Start an internet rumor that Obama is a hermaphrodite. > No good to be able to hate _the_ Black/White _Man_ (who’s always keeping “us” down) if you can’t hate _the_ Black/White _Woman_ (who’s always keeping “us” down) too! :rolleyes: Is it politically incorrect to tell a hermaphroditic President to go fuck himself? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/367 "2010-02-12T19:06:13Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Ann Coulter proposed you invade them, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity. It didn’t really fly. But it has a nice beat and you can dance to it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/368 "2010-02-12T19:25:04Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > But it has a nice beat and you can dance to it. No, not really. It’s really quite awful, and makes Coulter and anyone who agrees with it an awful person too. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/369 "2010-02-12T19:53:22Z")
Personally, I think its a nice touch that Ms Coulter offers post-mortem conversion to Islamists. Very generous. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/370 "2010-02-12T20:26:02Z")
I’d always heard Christians were charitable. Especially the Conservative ones. Swell eggs, the lot of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/371 "2010-02-12T21:08:28Z")
Dear Pete: I am writing in advance to offer certain salient points regarding admission to your gated community. 1. While I cannot describe myself as a believer, I also am not an atheist, and have nothing but admiration for my favorite Jewboy. And if you didn’t want a smartass, why did you make me one? 2. I have commited any number of kindly and generous acts while expecting nothing from you guys. 3. None of those bad puns are mine, \*\*Vinyl Turnip \*\*made me do it. Fry _him._ 4. If my grandmother isn’t there, please advise soonest, as that would mean I’ve no chance whatsoever, and might as well devote my twilight years to wholehearted wickedness. Don’t have much evil in me, but I can surely manage some right smart wickedness. 5. If Mr. Clemens is not in residence, forget it, I’m not interested. 6. IANAL Yours, more or less, **e.** ---
**Author:** ![culture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@culture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/culture)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/372 "2010-02-12T23:05:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > No ,he left them the same. Therefore the gap got bigger and then cut taxes for the rich again and it got still bigger. The gap betwixt the rich and poor is like it was before the depression. It has only been like this once in our history. Do you think it is a good thing? Unless you are Rover it is unlikely. Given that the bottom 35-40% of Americans do not pay any federal income tax, this is pretty hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/373 "2010-02-13T00:05:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, after all, it is theirs! You break it, you buy it… or in this case, they bought it, then they broke it. And sent the bill to us! It’s true though–it really _does_ belong to them; but it’s still very painful watching someone trash their own precious possession, and not be able to do a thing to stop them. It’s especially painful when _we live inside that possession_. It’s like renting a crappy apartment from a slum-lord who lives in the huge, opulent penthouse on the top floor. You keep begging him to fix your broken pipes, re-install the toilet he removed, replace the broken windows and turn the electricity back on. He promises to fix it all, but just slaps a thin new coat of paint on your front door saying, “There! That oughta do it!” As you look at him in disbelief he proceeds to smash holes in your walls with a sledge-hammer, then bills you triple the cost of the damage, which he refuses to fix. Then, he doubles your rent, takes that money plus the money for the “repairs”, plus your security deposit, plus all of your credit cards, and spends it all on a third champagne-filled swimming pool in his penthouse. Finally, angry that he can’t afford a new exercise pavilion with solid-gold weights, he blames you for not being “fiscally prudent”. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/374 "2010-02-13T00:06:03Z")
Maybe we could find a big island out in the Pacific somewhere and ship the uninsured/uninsurable there. Worked for England with the poor. Or maybe send them to Africa on big boats, kind of a reverse slavery thing, and the best part is we would be sending mainly white people. How ironic would that be? I’m not real sure what we should do with the kids though, eat 'em or keep 'em as servants, decisions, decisions. All’s I know is I don’t want 'em dying on the streets and smelling up the place. Perhaps we should have the system I saw in Jakarta: find an old blind woman or a disfigured kid and help em beg on edge of the highway. Maybe that’s the ticket, I should start a nationwide health care beggar’s union. Assign everyone a corner, get a small piece of the take…profit! We don’t need no stinkin’ health care reform. We gots spaghetti dinners for cancer treatment. It’s the best of all possible worlds in the bestest country in the world.🆒 We obviously don’t need any hopey changey stuff here. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/375 "2010-02-13T05:11:51Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So let’s change that. We’ve dealt with monopolies before. > > Man, it’s like you’re reading my mind. > > So: what is the classic response to monopolistic behavior and price-fixing? This is a problem that’s come up plenty of times before; have we typically reacted with the one-two punch of creating a government-operated public option capable of competing against those private corporations while suddenly requiring every consumer to purchase the product in question? No we generally break them up into smaller parts. We prevent them from dominating a market. Nowadays we turn a blind eye and let them merge as much as they want. That is because they own the government. We do not create a government program. The airways are public property ,yet we allow the Tv, Cable, news and internet get gobbled up allowing less choice all the time. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/376 "2010-02-13T05:19:23Z")
> [@culture](#): > > Given that the bottom 35-40% of Americans do not pay any federal income tax, this is pretty hard to believe. [Website Unavailable](http://markmaynard.com/?p=786) You must get out more. [Fed Chief Issues Warning on Income Gap : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7235086) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/377 "2010-02-13T18:38:48Z")
Uhh, **gonzomax** , a little friendly advice. A lot of people who click on your links are likely to think that they will refute **culture** ’s claim that the bottom 35-45% of American [income achievers] do not pay income tax. And they will be nonplussed to find that your links do not explicitly provide that refutation. At least, that’s what happened to me. A few moments of thought finally led me to understand that you were merely substantiating your own assertion that the income gap has been growing. **culture** ’s income tax claim can be perfectly true, and also be completely irrelevant to the reality of the growing income gap. But if that claim is the only explicit assertion that appears in the post you quote, it serves as a sort of misdirection that works in his favor, and against you. Your riposte will more likely work in your favor if you reiterate the point that you are offering a cite for: _You find it hard to believe that Bush’s tax cuts resulted in a widening income gap?_ Then post your cites. ---
**Author:** ![culture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@culture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/culture)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/378 "2010-02-13T19:05:28Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Website Unavailable](http://markmaynard.com/?p=786) You must get out more. > [Fed Chief Issues Warning on Income Gap : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7235086) OK, my bad as I was unclear. I was responding to your comment that taxes were cut on the rich and left the same on the poor. In one sense this is true, as the rate of tax payment by the poor did not change as it stayed at zero. However, your comment implies that they do pay taxes and were left holding the bag while the rich got some sweet tax breaks. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/379 "2010-02-13T19:53:24Z")
They do not pay _income_ taxes. There are others. Several. ---
**Author:** ![culture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@culture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/culture)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/380 "2010-02-13T20:01:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > They do not pay _income_ taxes. There are others. Several. Yes, but unless you are willing to call SS welfare, this is not a tax per se, but rather a prepayment of retirement befits. Personally, given the flat rate of FICA taxes but the regressive rate of SS benefits, I feel it is a hybrid of a welfare payment and prepayed benefit. YMMV. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=20)