# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/381 "2010-02-13T22:38:18Z")
> [@culture](#): > > Yes, but unless you are willing to call SS welfare, this is not a tax per se, but rather a prepayment of retirement befits. It isn’t, for people under 45. There won’t be any retirement benefits. So once we have that little fiction aside, it’s a tax. ---
**Author:** ![culture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@culture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/culture)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/382 "2010-02-13T23:42:55Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > It isn’t, for people under 45. There won’t be any retirement benefits. So once we have that little fiction aside, it’s a tax. Don’t kid yourself. SS and Medicare will still be provided. Of course, if you have a pension or personal savings, it is going to be taxed right back to the government, but it will be paid. Tens of millions of selfish retirees will ensure that. They will eliminate every other form of government spending before the ever allow their precious SS check to be cut. Public education will be eliminated before they allow their benefits to go. This really supports my point. For the upper 25-50%, who have pensions and/or personal savings, it is a tax, as they will never see any (significant) benefit. For the lower 50-75%, it is prepaid retirement (actually even better, as they get in way more than they pay). Thus, SS is a tax on the relatively wealthy, but not on the relatively poor, opposite of what many collectivist would have you believe. As much as I like Warren Buffet, he missed the boat on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/383 "2010-02-14T00:06:49Z")
> [@culture](#): > > Don’t kid yourself. SS and Medicare will still be provided. Of course, if you have a pension or personal savings, it is going to be taxed right back to the government, but it will be paid. Tens of millions of selfish retirees will ensure that. I’m surprised that anyone who knows enough about Warren Buffet to have developed a liking for him would make such an ignorant comment. It so happens that by the time people reach retirement age they will have been forced to pay into the Social Security program for around 40 to 45 years. The money they have had to pay could have otherwise gone into a retirement account or to provide better for their families. And unlike the case with retirement funds or wise investment, when they die there is nothing to leave to their spouses. So you’d better bet that by the time they reach retirement age they are going to be wanting a return on that investment. Selfishness has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![culture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@culture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/culture)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/384 "2010-02-14T02:32:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m surprised that anyone who knows enough about Warren Buffet to have developed a liking for him would make such an ignorant comment. It so happens that by the time people reach retirement age they will have been forced to pay into the Social Security program for around 40 to 45 years. The money they have had to pay could have otherwise gone into a retirement account or to provide better for their families. And unlike the case with retirement funds or wise investment, when they die there is nothing to leave to their spouses. So you’d better bet that by the time they reach retirement age they are going to be wanting a return on that investment. Selfishness has nothing to do with it. I am not sure of your point, but I assume that you understand that the bottom portions of SS is subsidized by the top portion. The top portion has never gotten their money back, and the bottom has always gotten more than they should. It is the bottom portion that is always screaming about how the “deserve” SS, and should get even more than the do. I have no problem with people getting back an amount that reasonably reflects their “investment” into the system, in fact I think this is a great idea. However, except for a relatively few people at the middle of the system, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/385 "2010-02-14T22:25:18Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yeesh, gonzo. You know, I’ve had farts that sounded more intelligent than all of your posts combined. Then have someone read yours to you. Then you can see what intractable ignorance reads like. You are becoming a bigger joke every day. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/386 "2010-02-14T22:35:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Then have someone read yours to you. Then you can see what intractable ignorance reads like. You are becoming a bigger joke every day. Albatross. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/387 "2010-02-15T00:17:06Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Albatross. Most pertinent thing you have offered in weeks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/388 "2010-02-15T03:44:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > No we generally break them up into smaller parts. We prevent them from dominating a market. Nowadays we turn a blind eye and let them merge as much as they want. Well, that’s one approach. But if you’ve already _ **got** _ “smaller parts” – this one dominating State A’s market, that one dominating State B’s market, and so on – then you can aim at the same result by just removing the governmental interference that insulated those instances of monopolistic behavior in the first place: instead of breaking a single nationwide corporation into little competitors, you allow the local corporations to become nationwide competitors. Does anyone want to break up Coca-Cola into smaller parts? Of course not; it competes against Pepsi from coast to coast, on shelves in groceries that offer their own store-brand knockoff just in case. We don’t want to break up Levi Strauss; it does fine against Lee, in department stores that carry both while stocking their own alternative. We don’t step in to smash corporations when nationwide hotel chains ably compete against each other. We likewise don’t step in to smash corporations when _ **auto** _ insurance companies ably compete with each other. And we don’t introduce some government-run corporation to offer yet another alternative, either; we just let the free market play arbiter, albeit while using the government to investigate labor conditions and look into truth-in-advertising claims and, sure, bust a monopoly into smaller parts – but only as a means to an end, since the goal is _ **fostering competition.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/389 "2010-02-15T10:21:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Albatross. What flavor is it? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/390 "2010-02-15T14:42:02Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Most pertinent thing you have offered in weeks. Just thought I would respond to you with a post that made as much sense as yours did. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/391 "2010-02-24T10:58:17Z")
How’s that dance going? You know, the one in the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/392 "2010-02-24T11:05:39Z")
The problem with dancing on newly-dug graves is that you end up covered in mud. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/393 "2010-02-24T14:33:07Z")
That, and you might get attacked by zombie healthcare bills. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/394 "2010-02-24T18:07:52Z")
It’s always interesting when the guest of honor at a funeral turns out to maybe have a pulse after all. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/395 "2010-02-24T18:41:06Z")
Yep, the bitch is back (first poster to quote this and make “the bitch” refer to me instead of the health care reform bill gets the obvious joke of the day award). I’ve been meaning to bump this thread myself for a couple of days. I guess Obama is just a glutton for punishment. Instead of him being a Manchurian candidate for terrorists (as espoused by some right-wing nutjobs), maybe he’s really a Manchurian candidate for Republicans (as will probably soon be espoused by some left-wing nutjobs once the GOP storms Congress later this year). Enjoy your fun while it lasts, Obama. Mommy and daddy are going to return from vacation and clean up after your wild party. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/396 "2010-02-24T19:05:49Z")
Are they going to clean up after you? Looks like you may have soiled yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/397 "2010-02-24T21:07:22Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Enjoy your fun while it lasts, Obama. Mommy and daddy are going to return from vacation and clean up after your wild party. Wild party? Republicans have blocked most of his major legislation, except his tax cuts. So where is the wild, socialist, liberal party? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/398 "2010-02-24T21:17:59Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/399 "2010-02-24T21:20:00Z")
The “wild party” lasted the entire Reagan and Bush 2 administrations. The credit-card bill is coming due _now_. Remember the last time the budget was balanced, **Rand Rover**? You could look it up. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/400 "2010-02-24T21:34:51Z")
I’m glad to see HC reform back on the table and am looking forward to the televised discussion. Obama asked the GOP to post their ideas online and said he would post his 72 hours before the meeting. Obama posted his and, as far as I can tell, the GOP has not. Eric Cantor said they will be using the plan they posted last summer. I think it is funny that Boehner (sp?) first complained that the HC bill was too big and now complains that Obama’s 11 page ideas list is too small. I also think it is funny that the GOP has been complaining that they want to start over- with a “blank” piece of paper. That’s just a try at more time wasting and is a stupid idea. So what will happen tomorrow? Will the R’s show up shouting “No!”, “Socialism!”, and “Death Panels!” again? Or will they come to the room ready to work? I think they should be nervous after that last meeting. They did not leave there looking too good to me. If the Rep’s show up in a non-working mood, I hope the Dems just reconcile whatever bill they finish with, and soon. Anything has to be better than the mess of a system we have now. If the R’s show up willing to work, then they might actually come off looking good for a change, and as a side effect actually enact some much needed reform. I think tomorrow’s meeting will be a win for reform and for the people. I think people are tired of all the fighting. I’m pissed at the R’s and the GOP. I think they and their policies have done great damage to the country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=21)