# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/481 "2010-02-26T05:52:56Z")
Health care should not be a for profit industry. The doctors at the Mayo Clinic are on salary. That means they deal with their patients differently than a doctor that can make more money by cranking patients out the door as fast as possible. I believe Mayo is pretty famous for getting good results. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/482 "2010-02-26T07:47:06Z")
The mainstream point of wrath with insurance companies is the rotten stuff they do to people. And that they do it for money, of course. But this leads back to the question I keep asking: why, exactly. Do they do it for sheer survival, that the health insurance racket is so tough, they must do rotten things to people just to stay afloat. The amount of money they spend on lobbyists and Congresscritters would strongly suggest otherwise. But even if we take that for Gospel, that they cannot function without doing rotten stuff, then thanks for trying, appreciate it, but please get out of the way, find something else to do. Barista. Bike messenger. Whatever. But if they could get by without doing rotten stuff, if they could make a modest but real profit without squeezing the very life out of their fellow citizens, then why don’t they? And if the answer is greed, as it surely appears to be, then why should we permit such a criminal enterprise to feed upon our people? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/483 "2010-02-26T12:34:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Your ignorance is terrifying The Other Waldo Pepper. The notion that government is to blame for the mess that the private sector has made of our health care is Orwellian. Wait – health care, or health insurance? I think you’re glossing over a key point. Still, the government exempted these companies from antitrust regulation – and then complains that they act like monopolies. The government bars competition across state lines – and then complains that they aren’t competing to offer better prices and services. Sure, many employees buy through their employers, due to a government policy that makes it harder to switch providers – which folks in the government now lament. And what do you and your kind do? Talk up how “we need health care that will cover our medical emergencies, help us maintain our health, not tie us to an employer and potentially bankrupt us should we actually need to use it. None of those goals are achieved by the free market. None ever will be.” You say they _ **aren’t** _ achieved in a free market; I say they aren’t achieved in the current system, which _ **isn’t** _ a free market. You conclude that they _ **can’t** _ be achieved in a free market; I want to run the experiment. One of us is being Orwellian: the guy castigating “the free market”. It ain’t what you’re pointing at. > [@](#): > > But if they could get by without doing rotten stuff, if they could make a modest but real profit without squeezing the very life out of their fellow citizens, then why don’t they? And if the answer is greed, as it surely appears to be, then why should we permit such a criminal enterprise to feed upon our people? Because that’s what those people contract for. It’s not our place to step in and force consenting adults to stop engaging in such transactions; fill in whatever leftist cause you celebrate, from purchasing marijuana to engaging in homosexual activity. Without an insurer, folks would be limited to the medical care they can pay for; with an insurer, they gain more buying power. _ **They** _ think it’s a good deal, and _ **I** _ don’t want to interfere – aside from providing the usual regulations to ensure genuine competition. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/484 "2010-02-26T12:48:40Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Your ignorance is terrifying **The Other Waldo Pepper**. The notion that government is to blame for the mess that the private sector has made of our health care is Orwellian. > > The only fucking part of our health insurance that works is medicare or the part that is run by the government. OMG! That nearly made me nase coffee onto my keyboard. Thanks for the laugh to start the day off. The underlying cause of the problems we are having in healthcare IS the government. Ever since LBJ and his dreams of a socialist Utopia saddled us with Medicare, the healthcare system in this country has been circling the drain. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/485 "2010-02-26T12:51:52Z")
This is not the first time I’ve heard the idea that medicare ruined everything. Could you flesh out this idea? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/486 "2010-02-26T13:26:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > One minute of needless human suffering outweighs all the abstract political philosophy you have, or ever will have. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > My abstract political philosophy is based on the same thing as your abstract political philosophy, which is what I think is best for all members of society. I don’t see why your philosophy carries any more weight than mine. Luci, you’ve conveniently ignored this post, and the others that also discussed pretty much the same idea. Any response? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/487 "2010-02-26T13:26:35Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > This is not the first time I’ve heard the idea that medicare ruined everything. Could you flesh out this idea? I’d like to hear this idea fleshed out a bit further, as well. I’d also like to know what other organization can better provide healthcare to the single most risky (and expensive to cover) segment of the population. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/488 "2010-02-26T13:34:12Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Luci, you’ve conveniently ignored this post, and the others that also discussed pretty much the same idea. Any response? He’s probably still trying to find these people you keep referring to for whom bigger government is the goal rather than a by-product of the method of healthcare reform under discussion. Or at least those which aren’t made out of straw. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/489 "2010-02-26T14:38:44Z")
I’m still waiting to hear how the private sector is going to rush to care for the old lady on fifteen different medications or the obese guy with diabetes at a huge loss. I’m also still waiting to hear how other countries don’t really live longer than we do or pay less for the privilege. I suspect I’ll be waiting for a very long time. The only thing conservatives have to say on this issue is the government sucks. That’s not an answer. That’s idiotic mantra that has helped line the pockets of the insurance companies while causing thousands of needless deaths each year. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/490 "2010-02-26T15:33:23Z")
Well, I’m still waiting to hear why we need a governmwent takeover of the health care system just to make sure your fat guy with diabetes gets health care. And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to realize that just because a country with UHC has a healthier population doesn’t mean that UH delivers superior health care. More goes into whether a population is jealth than the quality of the health care. And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to explain why it is OK for them to ignore practical realities in service of their political philosophy but it’s bad for me to do so. And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to look at all of the practical realities of health care reform, not just the ones they like. Obama’s plan would force people to bu more insurance than they want, force them to pay more for it, and force them to pay more in taxes, all so that we can pay for the provision that forces everyone to have health insurance. I suspect I’ll be waiting a good long time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/491 "2010-02-26T15:44:38Z")
Perhaps if you mentioned some of your mythical “practical realities” people might respond to them. Instead you’re just pulling a sort of Chicken Little act without the specifics. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/492 "2010-02-26T16:06:00Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, I’m still waiting to hear why we need a governmwent takeover of the health care system just to make sure your fat guy with diabetes gets health care. > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to realize that just because a country with UHC has a healthier population doesn’t mean that UH delivers superior health care. More goes into whether a population is jealth than the quality of the health care. > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to explain why it is OK for them to ignore practical realities in service of their political philosophy but it’s bad for me to do so. > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to look at all of the practical realities of health care reform, not just the ones they like. Obama’s plan would force people to bu more insurance than they want, force them to pay more for it, and force them to pay more in taxes, all so that we can pay for the provision that forces everyone to have health insurance. > > I suspect I’ll be waiting a good long time. I’m not a liberal douche, so any answers I give will surely be ignored by an egotistical blockhead. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/493 "2010-02-26T16:10:06Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, I’m still waiting to hear why we need a governmwent takeover of the health care system just to make sure your fat guy with diabetes gets health care. > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to realize that just because a country with UHC has a healthier population doesn’t mean that UH delivers superior health care. More goes into whether a population is jealth than the quality of the health care. > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to explain why it is OK for them to ignore practical realities in service of their political philosophy but it’s bad for me to do so. > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to look at all of the practical realities of health care reform, not just the ones they like. Obama’s plan would force people to bu more insurance than they want, force them to pay more for it, and force them to pay more in taxes, all so that we can pay for the provision that forces everyone to have health insurance. > > I suspect I’ll be waiting a good long time. There is something fundamentally different about a system that does not make profit off health care. They have an interest in keeping their users healthy. They can actually get involved in prevention and maintenance. How do you think Obama would force people to buy more health care than they need? How did you determine how much they need? Who actually knows what the plan is? It has not been passed. It is in reconciliation. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/494 "2010-02-26T16:10:59Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, I’m still waiting to hear why we need a governmwent takeover of the health care system just to make sure your fat guy with diabetes gets health care. > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to realize that just because a country with UHC has a healthier population doesn’t mean that UH delivers superior health care. More goes into whether a population is jealth than the quality of the health care. > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to explain why it is OK for them to ignore practical realities in service of their political philosophy but it’s bad for me to do so. > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to look at all of the practical realities of health care reform, not just the ones they like. Obama’s plan would force people to bu more insurance than they want, force them to pay more for it, and force them to pay more in taxes, all so that we can pay for the provision that forces everyone to have health insurance. > > I suspect I’ll be waiting a good long time. So you’re admitting that countries with UHC have healthier populations at less cost but you’re perfectly willing to ignore why this is so just so you can adhere to your idiotic ideology. Could people like you go do this somewhere else? Repeating government fucks everything up a hundred times a day is not rational public policy. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/495 "2010-02-26T16:15:39Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > My preferred solution is to eliminate the antitrust exemption _ **and** _ eliminate barriers to competition across state lines; possibly I haven’t yet been clear enough about that. We’ve had far too many decades of that detestable one-two punch against genuine competition; I’d like at least a _ **little** _ time actually watching free-market activity play out before we let anyone declare that it won’t work. The CBO has also analyzed an earlier proposal to allow health insurance to be sold across state lines irrespective of state coverage mandates. Here is what they found, in brief: > [@](#): > > CBO estimates that enacting H.R. 2355 **would not have a substantial effect on the number of people who have health insurance coverage** : compared to current law, there could be a small increase or decrease in the number of uninsured individuals. . . . H.R. 2355 would reduce the price of individual health insurance coverage for people expected to have relatively low health care costs, while increasing the price of coverage for those expected to have relatively high health care costs. [Cite.](http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=6639&type=0) So your two proposals have been analyzed by the Congressional Budget Office and have been found to have no appreciable impact on costs or the number of people without coverage. With all due respect, your insistence that zero plus zero equals tens of millions more Americans with health insurance coverage can only be viewed as a function of your political bias, since there is no objective evidence to support your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/496 "2010-02-26T16:33:31Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Ever since LBJ and his dreams of a socialist Utopia saddled us with Medicare, the healthcare system in this country has been circling the drain. Psst … the official anti-Democratic talking point is that the US health care system is the envy of the world, and we’d be foolish to tamper with it. Perhaps your subscription to the newsletter expired? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/497 "2010-02-26T16:56:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, I’m still waiting to hear why we need a governmwent takeover of the health care system just to make sure your fat guy with diabetes gets health care. If you’ve got a way to convince the insurance companies not to exclude the fat diabetic guy under the “pre-existing condition” clauses or by making his premiums so high as to be completely unaffordable, I’d like to hear it. > [@](#): > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to realize that just because a country with UHC has a healthier population doesn’t mean that UH delivers superior health care. More goes into whether a population is jealth than the quality of the health care. Not that UHC is on the table in the US but: as a participant in a UHC system I can tell you that the healthcare I receive is not particularly “superior” in quality to that in the US. It’s about the same, quality-wise. What it is, is accessible, affordable, and involves a lot less paperwork. > [@](#): > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to explain why it is OK for them to ignore practical realities in service of their political philosophy but it’s bad for me to do so. Your political philosophy = more dead people, in a way that one can draw a fairly straight line from point A to point B. If you can do the same for mine, go for it. > [@](#): > > And I’m still waiting for liberal douches to look at all of the practical realities of health care reform, not just the ones they like. Obama’s plan would force people to bu more insurance than they want, force them to pay more for it, and force them to pay more in taxes, all so that we can pay for the provision that forces everyone to have health insurance. Since people can keep the insurance they have, and since the CBO has said that premiums would go down for equivalent coverage, two thirds of your assertions are wrong. More taxes - maybe. Which, I suspect, is the only part of the entire debate you really care about. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/498 "2010-02-26T16:56:44Z")
**Rand Rover** , why do you hate America? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/499 "2010-02-26T17:04:47Z")
No reputable health care provider would ever recommend liberal douches. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/500 "2010-02-26T17:07:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps if you mentioned some of your mythical “practical realities” people might respond to them. Instead you’re just pulling a sort of Chicken Little act without the specifics. Look upthread. I mentioned some and got one bullshit half-response. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=26)