# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/41 "2010-02-03T13:17:44Z")
Wow. I forgot what a steaming pile of suck Rand Rover is. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/42 "2010-02-03T13:19:45Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > What does that number look like after adjusting for inflation? Actually, according to [this article](http://reason.com/archives/1993/01/01/the-medicare-monster) by Reason magazine, the medicare projection, adjusted for inflation, was $12 billion. : [quote] The cost of Medicare is a good place to begin. At its start, in 1966, Medicare cost 3 billion. The House Ways and Means Committee estimated that Medicare would cost only about 12 billion by 1990 (a figure that included an allowance for inflation). This was a supposedly “conservative” estimate. But in 1990 Medicare actually cost $107 billion.[/quiote] It’s possible, of course, that the numbers used by the 1960s analysis to figure out the inflation rate were just off (because, if you remember, we did have above average inflation in the 1970s), but I don’t know what the price estimate in 1965 dollars was for the 1990 estimate, so I have no way of knowing what the actual cost was. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/43 "2010-02-03T13:22:10Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’m still trying to find an actual cite for it, but the actual claim is that the federal report that came up with medicare cost projections in 1965 claimed that Medicare costs would reach 9 billion dollars in 1990. Agreed. I was in error as stating that was a direct quote from LBJ. > [@](#): > > A further concern is that initial cost estimates of federal health programs are usually very optimistic. When Medicare was launched in 1965, Part A was projected to cost $9 billion by 1990, but ended up costing $67 billion. When Medicaid’s special hospitals subsidy was added in 1987, it was supposed to cost $100 million annually, but it already cost $11 billion by 1992. When Medicare’s home care benefit was added in 1988, it was projected to cost $4 billion in 1993, but ended up costing $10 billion. Or consider that when Massachusetts Commonwealth Care was put into place in 2006, it was expected to cost about $725 million annually, but the expected cost for 2009 is now almost $1 billion. > **[Lying for Health Care Reform - LBJ's Example for Today's Democrats](https://reason.com/2009/08/26/lying-for-health-care-reform-l/)** > > NPR's Morning Edition show aired a rather disturbing segment today on how President Lyndon Johnson's political chicanery and outright lies… ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/44 "2010-02-03T13:30:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And this is what the Right does best, because it can’t actually do anything constructive-it spreads irrational Fear. And when it can’t point out anything to fear in a proposal, it will make up fears about some vague horror that will happen in the future. Oh, shove it, **Czarcasm**. There is nothing irrational about being concerned over yet another government boondoggle, especially one the size and scope of Obamacare. You ever read this quote? > [@](#): > > Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Apparently, you can’t remember Medicare even though it still exists. It’s the main reason our healthcare system is as screwed up today as it is, and we are bleeding red ink because of it. We don’t want more of the same under the guise of Obamacare or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/45 "2010-02-03T13:32:13Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Half-White too, the same way! > > That’s why Obama is the greatest President this country has ever had … everyone can have a lame-ass reason to hate him! > > CMC fnord! > Note to self: Start an internet rumor that Obama is a hermaphrodite. > No good to be able to hate _the_ Black/White _Man_ (who’s always keeping “us” down) if you can’t hate _the_ Black/White _Woman_ (who’s always keeping “us” down) too! :rolleyes: During the 10 years that Obama was running for President, a picture circulated of him wearing something distinctly muslim looking, and another picture circulated of him wearing something distinctly Jewish looking (a yarmulka or something). I thought about buying the domain name [www.ObamaIsAMuslimAndAJew.com](http://www.ObamaIsAMuslimAndAJew.com) but never got around to it. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/46 "2010-02-03T13:37:48Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > Didn’t I read somewhere that the OP is an attorney? If I’m right, he probably supports tort reform. Wha??? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/47 "2010-02-03T13:59:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Damn those meddling government bureaucrats, keeping old folks from dying like that. If we just let people croak when they get old and poor and start needing expensive treatments that they can’t afford, like God and Nature intended, we’d have saved a bunch of money by now, and we wouldn’t have so many old folks cluttering up the place. Right, because if the government doesn’t provide something, then it won’t be provided. If the government doesn’t do something, then it won’t be done. And it gets better, because if the governmenrt does provide, then it can do so without any other effects on the economy or society–with its surgical precision and never-ending resources, the government can just swoop in and save the kitty in the tree without so much as rustling a single leaf. You are so awesome Kimstu, I’m voting you for Jesus in the next election. ---
**Author:** ![born\_too\_late](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba9def/32.png) [@born\_too\_late](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/born_too_late)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/48 "2010-02-03T14:04:27Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I say it like that so that those who don’t want to take my viewpoint seriously in the first place have an easy reason for not doing so. Makes it easier for them than actually thinking about the issues. _head explodes_ You don’t think before you post or speak, do you. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/49 "2010-02-03T14:05:16Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I can’t believe you’re _still_ mad about never getting a blowjob in high school. I kept asking for one, but your mom was much more interested in me filling her insatiable anus (band name!). ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/50 "2010-02-03T14:06:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Hey liberal douches–no free health insurance for you!! Not yours!!! You gotta pay for stuff just like all the rest of us schlubs that actually work for a living have gotta pay for stuff! So sowwy! I’m genuinely curious about something. Let’s say that someone doesn’t get insurance, either because their job doesn’t offer it, or because they had an employment gap and a preexisting condition, or because they’re just plain irresponsible - and feel free to give multiple answers if the reason makes a difference. Anyway, their lack of insurance ends up resulting in insufficient medical care, and they die because of it. Do you view this as a necesary tragedy, or would you be gleeful that one of the people who wasn’t as smart and responsible as you got what was coming for them? ---
**Author:** ![born\_too\_late](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba9def/32.png) [@born\_too\_late](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/born_too_late)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/51 "2010-02-03T14:13:51Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m genuinely curious about something. > > Let’s say that someone doesn’t get insurance, either because their job doesn’t offer it, or because they had an employment gap and a preexisting condition, or because they’re just plain irresponsible - and feel free to give multiple answers if the reason makes a difference. > > Anyway, their lack of insurance ends up resulting in insufficient medical care, and they die because of it. > > Do you view this as a necesary tragedy, or would you be gleeful that one of the people who wasn’t as smart and responsible as you got what was coming for them? You’re just wasting your time. Your post has reasoning. Rand doesn’t want to think, he just wants to spaz. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/52 "2010-02-03T14:20:26Z")
My take: Rand’s subscription to Ayn’s Bulbous Nipples Monthly ran dry and he’s gotta come back and troll the Dope to get his hard-on back. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/53 "2010-02-03T14:34:09Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Oh, shove it, **Czarcasm**. There is nothing irrational about being concerned over yet another government boondoggle, especially one the size and scope of Obamacare. You ever read this quote? > > Apparently, you can’t remember Medicare even though it still exists. It’s the main reason our healthcare system is as screwed up today as it is, and we are bleeding red ink because of it. We don’t want more of the same under the guise of Obamacare or whatever. Be Afraid!!! Obamacare!!! Government!!! When was the last time the Righties _proposed_ instead of _opposed_? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/54 "2010-02-03T14:46:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When was the last time the Righties _proposed_ instead of _opposed_? Well, there was a little thing called the conquest of Iraq, but that’s from way back when, when [“it was standard practice not to pay for things”](http://www.docudharma.com/diary/18187/orrin-hatch-six-years-ago-it-was-standard-practice-not-to-pay-for-things). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/55 "2010-02-03T14:52:17Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Well, there was a little thing called the conquest of Iraq, but that’s from way back when, when [“it was standard practice not to pay for things”](http://www.docudharma.com/diary/18187/orrin-hatch-six-years-ago-it-was-standard-practice-not-to-pay-for-things). Well, it was [only going to cost $1.7 billion](http://www.fas.org/sgp/temp/natsios042303.html). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/56 "2010-02-03T14:54:19Z")
Should somebody PM **curlcoat**? Or will she sniff this one out on her own & decide to make **Rand Rover** look smart? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/57 "2010-02-03T15:25:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Be Afraid!!! > Obamacare!!! > Government!!! > > When was the last time the Righties _proposed_ instead of _opposed_? The last time they had the reins of government. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/58 "2010-02-03T15:30:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The last time they had the reins of government. Seems to me that Fear was the Word back then, too. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/59 "2010-02-03T15:31:14Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m genuinely curious about something. > > Let’s say that someone doesn’t get insurance, either because their job doesn’t offer it, or because they had an employment gap and a preexisting condition, or because they’re just plain irresponsible - and feel free to give multiple answers if the reason makes a difference. > > Anyway, their lack of insurance ends up resulting in insufficient medical care, and they die because of it. > > Do you view this as a necesary tragedy, or would you be gleeful that one of the people who wasn’t as smart and responsible as you got what was coming for them? Senorbeef, you’re a good egg, so I will respond to this at more length later. For now let me just say that the answer is (c) None of the Above because the two choices look at the situation from the wrong perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/60 "2010-02-03T15:35:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Be Afraid!!! > Obamacare!!! > Government!!! > > When was the last time the Righties _proposed_ instead of _opposed_? Pure opposition with no counter-proposal is perfectly fine when the proposal is a steaming pile. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=4)