# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/601 "2010-03-01T03:30:26Z")
Hell, I’m fine with making ideology irrelevent to the queston. Bring a free market solution that will solve all the problems that UHC does, I’m on board. Be a hell of a lot easier than fighting Big Money ever step of the way, even if it were only 90% as good, I’d be willing to consider it. But that would certainly mean that the profits the insurance companies are wallowing in today will have to be minimized. And their executives wont earn much more than the executives of the Salvation Army. Of course, it would be a great thing for their country! Wouldn’t it be a grand thing, to see them rush to volunteer? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/602 "2010-03-01T03:49:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Not if there are dozens of examples of governments doing it for less money **with better results**. . . . which shows quite nicely how you filter facts through your beliefs. Your statement is based on studies showing that countries with UHC have healthier populations. But that doesn’t mean that UHC is better. It just means that countries with UHC have healthier populations. There are lots of factors that go into the health of a population other than whether they have UHC or some other system. One such factor is the amount of french fries and ice cream and whatnot that goes down the throat of members of such population. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/603 "2010-03-01T03:52:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hell, I’m fine with making ideology irrelevent to the queston. Bring a free market solution that will solve all the problems that UHC does, I’m on board. Be a hell of a lot easier than fighting Big Money ever step of the way, even if it were only 90% as good, I’d be willing to consider it. > > But that would certainly mean that the profits the insurance companies are wallowing in today will have to be minimized. And their executives wont earn much more than the executives of the Salvation Army. > > Of course, it would be a great thing for their country! Wouldn’t it be a grand thing, to see them rush to volunteer? I don’t give even half a shit about whether a solution is “free market” or not. I care whether it’s private sector or publich sector. Charities are part of the private sector. And charities could do everything in the current health care reform billl and more (hell, a charity could provide UHC). Government involvement is completely unnecessary (unless, of course, one wants to force everyone to accept your ideas, which is exactly what you want to do). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/604 "2010-03-01T04:30:44Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I don’t give even half a shit about whether a solution is “free market” or not. I care whether it’s private sector or publich sector. Charities are part of the private sector. And charities could do everything in the current health care reform billl and more (hell, a charity could provide UHC). Government involvement is completely unnecessary (unless, of course, one wants to force everyone to accept your ideas, which is exactly what you want to do). You of course don’t want that? Your solutions all distill down to one thing, anybody but you. You do not want to have any of your sacred money go toward health care. We get it. Whether they live or die or suffer, no matter. Your money matters. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/605 "2010-03-01T04:32:14Z")
Why are you guys still trying to engage **Rand Rover**? He’s all but admitted he’s an evangelist for the religion of the private sector. Might as well try to convert Jack Chick to Tibetan Buddhism. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/606 "2010-03-01T04:56:58Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Why are you guys still trying to engage **Rand Rover**? He’s all but admitted he’s an evangelist for the religion of the private sector. Might as well try to convert Jack Chick to Tibetan Buddhism. He’s an obsessed one-trick pony. I’m amazed that ppl keep throwing themselves against that wall. “It’s taking longer than we thought” indeed - and I’m not talking about RR. In fact, I’m amazed at how often this sort of thing goes on, and not just with RR. The only thing crazier than spending hours a day on a message board **repeating the same BS over and over** is lining up to argue with it. Hey, guys like RR do liberals & centrists a service though. It exposes how little thought goes into their ideas, and shows how reasoned the opposition is. Keep up the good work, RR! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/607 "2010-03-01T05:02:29Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > …And charities could do everything in the current health care reform billl and more (hell, a charity could provide UHC)… And this guy says **gonzo** is nuts! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/608 "2010-03-01T05:03:54Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > …Might as well try to convert Jack Chick to Tibetan Buddhism. Which would be totally, galactically cool. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/609 "2010-03-01T10:48:46Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > . . . which shows quite nicely how you filter facts through your beliefs. Your statement is based on studies showing that countries with UHC have healthier populations. But that doesn’t mean that UHC is better. It just means that countries with UHC have healthier populations. There are lots of factors that go into the health of a population other than whether they have UHC or some other system. One such factor is the amount of french fries and ice cream and whatnot that goes down the throat of members of such population. Have you _seen_ what the British eat? This is the country that invented the deep-fried Mars bar. And alcohol consumption is dangerously high for a significant percentage of the population. Healthy diet is definitely _not_ a factor here. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/610 "2010-03-01T11:23:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The insurance companies have set themselves up to be exempt from anti-trust laws. Why is that? How does that hold down prices.? Of course it does not. And that’s what should be changed; the government should never have exempted them from anti-trust laws. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/611 "2010-03-01T11:40:34Z")
So all these Canadians and Europeans and such with UHC are really oppressed and miserable… but they don’t realize it? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/612 "2010-03-01T11:47:21Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So all these Canadians and Europeans and such with UHC are really oppressed and miserable… but they don’t realize it? 😕 We know our place. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/613 "2010-03-01T14:57:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I don’t give even half a shit about whether a solution is “free market” or not. I care whether it’s private sector or publich sector. Charities are part of the private sector. And charities could do everything in the current health care reform billl and more (hell, a charity could provide UHC). It’s really simple: all one has to do is provide a charity with an operating budget of a few trillion dollars per year, and - ZAM! - it could provide health care for everyone! Personally, I’d rather have my UHC provided by magical unicorns. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/614 "2010-03-01T14:59:07Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > …charities could do everything in the current health care reform billl and more (hell, a charity could provide UHC). Ford Motor Company _could_ do all these things, too. Continually bouncing off your sloping forehead is the point that they (and charities) _don’t_. > [@elucidator](#): > > And this guy says **gonzo** is nuts! Well, it’s not an either/or proposition. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And that’s what should be changed; the government should never have exempted them from anti-trust laws. Be that as it may, the barriers to entry are going to remain extremely high and insurers are already free to compete across state lines. As long as states continue to regulate their own insurance markets, deregulation on the federal level is pointless. In any case, reduced state control of anything is something the righties and their **Rand Rover** -esque “free market or death!” cock-gobbler peons will never accept. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/615 "2010-03-01T17:11:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I have a friend who is 46. he just got through with lymphoma. He may have knocked it into remission. He spend 2 days last week fighting with his insurance company. He was on the phone for endless hours trying to speak to higher ups. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And _ **that’s** _ the problem we should be dealing with. No it’s not. The problem we should be dealing with is the fact that the provision and administration of payment to health care providers is being operated on a for-profit basis. As long as this is the case, the very function itself will remain incentivized to maximize profit, even when it results in harm to patients, whether it be financial or medical harm. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/616 "2010-03-01T17:16:13Z")
Mark my words: once Big Charity has its way, there will be no end to it! You think the United Way rep in your office is a pain in the butt _now_, just you wait! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/617 "2010-03-01T18:10:16Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So all these Canadians and Europeans and such with UHC are really oppressed and miserable… but they don’t realize it? 😕 Do those UHC programs include little happiness pills for everyone? Maybe that’s it. Soma for the masses. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/618 "2010-03-01T18:23:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Ford Motor Company _could_ do all these things, too. Continually bouncing off your sloping forehead is the point that they (and charities) _don’t_. > > Well, it’s not an either/or proposition. > > Be that as it may, the barriers to entry are going to remain extremely high and insurers are already free to compete across state lines. As long as states continue to regulate their own insurance markets, deregulation on the federal level is pointless. > > In any case, reduced state control of anything is something the righties and their **Rand Rover** -esque “free market or death!” cock-gobbler peons will never accept. Actually long ago ,Ford came up with Henry Ford Hospital to escape the cost of health care in his autos. But it became so successful on its own that Ford could not resist spinning it off. There have been attempts made for companies top provide doctors and clinics for their employees. I worked at a company that had an employee clinic. It dealt with regular doctor type illnesses for their immediate families. It was a great idea. Competing across state lines sounds good on the surface, but they will convince a state to allow them to cheat their customers worse than the others and they would all have a base there quickly. Two states allow usurious credit card rates. All financial institutions have a presence there. Corporations hate competition and will do everything in their power to avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/619 "2010-03-01T18:31:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Charities are part of the private sector. And charities could do everything in the current health care reform billl and more (hell, a charity could provide UHC). And since you admittedly don’t give to charities, it would be a win for you! Which is really, the whole point of everything you post. It’s all about you. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/620 "2010-03-01T18:36:25Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You seem to think I care what the Congressional Budget Office predicts; I don’t. You disregard the expert opinion of people who don’t agree with you… shhhhhhhhhhocking. > [@](#): > > Don’t ask government employees whether killing the antitrust exemption and dropping barriers to sales across state lines will suffice; try it, and _ **then** _ meddle as little as needed to make whatever changes can garner popular support at that point. These government employees are not advocating one solution over another. They aren’t saying your idea is bad, they are saying it is inconsequential. > [@](#): > > You say that, in the absence of evidence, I have a political bias in favor of free markets; that’s absolutely correct. And I feel you have a political bias _ **against** _ them. The difference is, I’m only relying on my bias until the evidence comes in; once people actually have the chance to make their own decisions in a fair-play context, I’ll _ **then** _ be willing to guide off the results. We have impartial, non-partisan economists looking at an economic problem and saying that your preferred solution is inconsequential. That is evidence. I like free markets when they work, but there’s no evidence that more free markets will solve the rising cost and shrinking availability of health insurance. Here’s why. Is there any state in which there is a shortage of companies offering health insurance? Does adding more insurance companies to any state necessarily reduce costs? Let’s consider where you live. Are there several grocery stores in your area? I assume so. Will adding another store reduce the price of milk? Will adding ten new grocery stores further reduce the price of milk? Will adding one hundred stores reduce the price of milk to almost nothing? Of course not. The problem with health insurance isn’t lack of competition, it’s the cost of business in providing the service. More competition in health care providers just isn’t going to make milk cheaper. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=32)