# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/621 "2010-03-01T19:10:24Z")
[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/22/competition-lacking-among_n_266153.html) Wrong again. The lack of competition has been cited it many discussions and speeches. It is a serious factor in the high prices. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/622 "2010-03-01T19:18:34Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And since you admittedly don’t give to charities, it would be a win for you! Which is really, the whole point of everything you post. It’s all about you. EP, so I guess you are just going to ignore my post responding to yours about Canada? It’s a couple of pages back. I do give to two charities currently. If I weren’t forced to contribute to charity through taxes, then I would give more to charity than I do now (perhaps even more than I pay in taxes now) because I would be able to choose how my charitable dollars are spent. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/623 "2010-03-01T19:31:24Z")
I hear NAMBLA is renaming a wing of its offices for you. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/624 "2010-03-01T19:32:16Z")
I don’t really think that was called for, **RNATB**. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/625 "2010-03-01T19:35:16Z")
True dat. His actual stated opinions are more than adequate fodder for mockery, disdain, and general hilarity. No need to embellish or to geld the lily. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/626 "2010-03-01T19:35:34Z")
Wait, so I imply he’s subhuman and call him a “cock-gobbling peon” and you say nothing, but one (mild and exceptionally witty) allusion to NAMBLA and you bust out the waggling fingers? Anyway, it’s **Rand Rover**. He’s a glutton for abuse. A conspicuous consumer of epithets. A… guy who likes to be called names. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/627 "2010-03-01T19:36:48Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > EP, so I guess you are just going to ignore my post responding to yours about Canada? It’s a couple of pages back. I thought **elucidator** ’s post 553 did an admirable job pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. I was also impressed with how you initially spoke of how economies of countries with UHC were suffering RIGHT NOW! and then you changed gears to talk about how unemployment rates RIGHT NOW! were not important; we should look at historic rates. In short, your rebuttal was rather weak. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/628 "2010-03-01T19:42:06Z")
From Mark Twains _Letters from the Earth_, being a letter from the Recording Angel to a miser… > [@](#): > > …and then got down your pen and your checkbook and mailed her fifteen whole dollars! > > ``` > Ah, heaven bless and keep you forever and ever, generous heart! There was not a dry eye in the realms of bliss; and amidst the hand-shakings, and embracings, and praisinqs, the decree was thundered forth from the shining mount, that this deed should outhonor all the historic self-sacrifices of men and angels, and be recorded by itself upon a page of its own, for that the Strain of it upon you had been heavier and bitterer than the strain it costs ten thousand martyrs to yield up their lives at the fiery stake; and all said, "What is the giving up of life, to a noble soul, or to ten thousand noble souls, compared with the giving up of fifteen dollars out of the greedy grip of the meanest white man that ever lived on the face of the earth?" > > And it was a true word. And Abraham, weeping, shook out the contents of his bosom and pasted the eloquent label there, "RESERVED": and Peter, weeping, said, "He shall be received with a torchlight procession when he comes"; and then all heaven boomed, and was glad you were going there. And so was hell.... > > ``` > **[Armageddon Buffet: Letter to the Earth](https://www.angelfire.com/wizard2/armbuff/lettertoearth.htm)** > > I have the honor, as per command, to inform you that your recent act of benevolence and self-sacrifice has been recorded upon a page of the Book called Golden Deeds of Men; a distinction, I am permitted to remark, which is not merely extraordinary,... ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/629 "2010-03-01T19:42:16Z")
EP, that’s the response I expected (ie, hand waving). Canada and France etc are suffering right now from permanent unemployment, which can only be shown by looking at unemployment figures over time. So, I didn’t change what I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/630 "2010-03-01T20:07:16Z")
Ironic, really, since the French model is among the most dependent on private funding in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/631 "2010-03-01T20:14:17Z")
Luci, our shared love of Mark Twain may save you from the wall come the RRevolution. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/632 "2010-03-01T20:16:22Z")
You are forgiven. _Egotist te absolvo_. Go, and sin no more. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/633 "2010-03-02T03:46:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You disregard the expert opinion of people who don’t agree with you… shhhhhhhhhhocking. I’m not interested in opinions either way; I want to see the experiment play out, rather than hearing predictions from people who agree _ **or** _ disagree. I want us to draw our conclusions after consenting adults have chosen among competitors in a free market; I want _ **that** _ to get the benefit of the doubt until the evidence rolls in. > [@](#): > > These government employees are not advocating one solution over another. They aren’t saying your idea is bad, they are saying it is inconsequential. I’m saying their opinion is inconsequential; results are what matter. Let’s get _ **some** _ results before we let _ **anyone** _ preemptively declare it a failure. > [@](#): > > We have impartial, non-partisan economists looking at an economic problem and saying that your preferred solution is inconsequential. That is evidence. I like free markets when they work, but there’s no evidence that more free markets will solve the rising cost and shrinking availability of health insurance. That’s not good enough. You want to stop consenting adults from entering into contracts before a particular free market even _ **exists;** _ I need to hear a better reason than “there’s no evidence that more free markets will solve” this or that problem. I’m all for looking at what remains once the market’s had a chance, and _ **then** _ deciding to meddle; that’s when I’d feel we have evidence worth evaluating. > [@](#): > > Let’s consider where you live. Are there several grocery stores in your area? I assume so. Will adding another store reduce the price of milk? Will adding ten new grocery stores further reduce the price of milk? Will adding one hundred stores reduce the price of milk to almost nothing? > > Of course not. The problem with health insurance isn’t lack of competition, it’s the cost of business in providing the service. More competition in health care providers just isn’t going to make milk cheaper. Well, that’s hardly fair; I’m of course among the majority of Americans who feel his insurance coverage _ **is** _ like his milk, in that I _ **am** _ satisfied with the price I pay for both. You presumably want me to pretend I’m one of those people who isn’t personally satisfied with the former – and then you’re asking me whether I remain satisfied with the latter? Good heavens, if I were the sort of person who feels the price of insurance should be even lower, then I may well be the sort of person who feels the price of milk should be even lower. Possibly I’d feel I should get unlimited insurance and unlimited milk in exchange for nothing. Still, though: you ask whether there are _ **several** _ grocery stores in my area? Yes, there are; they compete against each other, such that adding ten more or a hundred might well not make a difference; we’ve already got _ **several** _ keeping each other honest. I’m guessing that’s likewise the case with groceries in your area; is it the case with health insurance? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/634 "2010-03-02T14:33:45Z")
Have you only got one insurer in your area? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/635 "2010-03-02T15:25:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Still, though: you ask whether there are _ **several** _ grocery stores in my area? Yes, there are; they compete against each other, such that adding ten more or a hundred might well not make a difference; we’ve already got _ **several** _ keeping each other honest. I’m guessing that’s likewise the case with groceries in your area; is it the case with health insurance? Well Insurance providers also compete for your business. They’ll compete for you individually. They compete for you in group plans through your employer. They’ll do everything they can to get you to be one to pay them monthly for them to provide insurance. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that when the market has two or more insurance carriers there’s fierce and healthy competition in the marketplace to and a wide variety of choice available on the plans and options under each provider. But that’s not the point of insurance is it? That’s just the “get you in the door and pay us monthly” half. There’s the other half you’re not addressing. It’s the “reimburse me, the customer, under the terms of our plan, for my necessary medical expenses.” Not much competition there. Because no matter how many providers there are in the market, their goal is the same: maximize profit. And that goal isn’t met when they pay out claims. They’ll gladly take your money and it’ll seem like a good deal…until they drop you and you’re stuck wondering how you’re going to end up paying for the $100,000 in medical expenses that just landed in your lap. The reason the grocery store analogy doesn’t work is because 99% of the items in the grocery store, when bought, provide a profit to the store. They want you to shop there. Insurance companies don’t. It would be like if Sam’s Club and CostCo provided items at a loss but made their money solely on their membership cards. So you go in and could purchase whatever you wanted at an insanely cheap price because CostCo reimburses the distributor for part of your purchase. Your mmebership comes with a yearly limit that if you exceed you would pay directly to the distributor. Oh and occassionally when you’re buying a dishwasher or kitchen remodel you find out after you’ve checked out that Sam’s Club isn’t paying back anything, they’ll cancel your membership oh, and no returns. It would be an insane system and CostCo would never ever ever survive in the marketplace…unless the things inside were so valuable and so necessary in our modern life that you’d pay any membership fee imaginable just to gain access to it. And CostCo knew that you would. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/636 "2010-03-02T15:38:00Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And that’s what should be changed; the government should never have exempted them from anti-trust laws. They are the government. Corporations have their way with the government because it has been set up that way. It took generations of carving on the American ideal before a system emerged that allows money to have huge influence. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/637 "2010-03-02T15:41:56Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m not interested in opinions either way; I want to see the experiment play out, rather than hearing predictions from people who agree _ **or** _ disagree. I want us to draw our conclusions after consenting adults have chosen among competitors in a free market; I want _ **that** _ to get the benefit of the doubt until the evidence rolls in. You’re not entitled to the benefit of the doubt because there’s no evidence that it is a good idea. Do you honestly expect the government to enact every half-baked idea that comes along regardless of evidence simply to try different things and see how they turn out? Fine, then I demand universal health care. We shouldn’t listen to anyone who doesn’t like the idea, because we should enact UHC and just see how it works. What do you say to the libertarian who says that world peace will break out if we get rid of our military and allow free associations of people to defend our country? You know, let the free market choose the best way to defend our country. I will point out that there is no evidence that this is the case and experts agree it is a dumb idea. Since you reject that line of thinking, I suppose the hippie will convince you that the opinions of experts don’t matter – we should just try it out and see what happens, and let the results speak for themselves. > [@](#): > > Well, that’s hardly fair; I’m of course among the majority of Americans who feel his insurance coverage _ **is** _ like his milk, in that I _ **am** _ satisfied with the price I pay for both. You are completely missing the point. You are essentially saying that competition magically makes everything cheaper, so I’m raising the point that infinite competition will not lower prices beyond a certain point. Infinite competition will not magically lower prices of health insurance no more than it will magically lower the price of milk. If state mandates are removed, then the price of health insurance for certain plans in certain places will drop because those plans are not as good. As CBo > [@](#): > > I’m guessing that’s likewise the case with groceries in your area; is it the case with health insurance? There are 16 companies that I count that offer health insurance where I am. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/638 "2010-03-02T16:16:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’re not entitled to the benefit of the doubt because there’s no evidence that it is a good idea. Do you honestly expect the government to enact every half-baked idea that comes along regardless of evidence simply to try different things and see how they turn out? > > Fine, then I demand universal health care. We shouldn’t listen to anyone who doesn’t like the idea, because we should enact UHC and just see how it works. > > What do you say to the libertarian who says that world peace will break out if we get rid of our military and allow free associations of people to defend our country? You know, let the free market choose the best way to defend our country. I will point out that there is no evidence that this is the case and experts agree it is a dumb idea. Since you reject that line of thinking, I suppose the hippie will convince you that the opinions of experts don’t matter – we should just try it out and see what happens, and let the results speak for themselves. > > You are completely missing the point. You are essentially saying that competition magically makes everything cheaper, so I’m raising the point that infinite competition will not lower prices beyond a certain point. Infinite competition will not magically lower prices of health insurance no more than it will magically lower the price of milk. If state mandates are removed, then the price of health insurance for certain plans in certain places will drop because those plans are not as good. As CBo > > There are 16 companies that I count that offer health insurance where I am. There are 16 with approximately the same price. They do not compete. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/639 "2010-03-02T17:16:28Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There are 16 with approximately the same price. They do not compete. I have found the prices are significantly different. My quick survey of seven of the plans reveal that the employee share of single coverage ranges from $97 to $273 dollars per pay period. The cost of several of the plans seem to cluster around the $100 to $135 point. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/640 "2010-03-02T19:40:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > There are 16 companies that I count that offer health insurance where I am. I would be curious how many of those companies offer individual insurance (for people who cannot get group health insurance through their job, or are self employed). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=33)