# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/821 "2010-03-22T07:58:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Not under the current plan, no. But I’ve been talking about when the time comes that single-payer prevails. This is why I oppose all legislation designed to improve our security and protect us from terrorism. Sure, the ideas currently up for proposal may have some merits and do some good - but I know that one day it all leads to jackbooted thugs invading our homes and raping our wives at least once per month as will be required by law. So sure, that port security bill may shore up some problems with our current system and do some good, but if you vote for it, you are voting for raping my wife. WHY GOD WHY! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/822 "2010-03-22T08:01:58Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > That’s fine. You’ll be the happy titty-baby letting everyone else take care of you, while the Pubbies will still be their own men happily making their own way in life while still paying for you to have what you can’t provide for yourself. > > All things considered, being conservative is better. 😉 Not the way **you** describe it, it ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/823 "2010-03-22T08:36:54Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You’re right, sort of. Blacks did have the right to vote prior to that, but they suffered from a lot of intimidation and various other tactics to prevent their voting, which the civil rights act of 1960 was designed to overcome. I was thinking it was 64, for some reason - so it was during Kennedy rather than just past him. I’m bailing for the night, but Kennedy was killed in November of 1963. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Just to be clear, you seem to be using counter-culture and “the left” interchangably for the purposes of this post. Am I interpreting that correctly? Yeah, pretty much. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > You were probably opposed to the civil rights act type stuff at the time (if you were politically active - I don’t know how old you are) or if you weren’t around then, you would’ve opposed it if given the chance. People who pine for the good old days and talk about how liberals ruin everything have a very high overlap with the people who would like to obstruct progress on issues like civil rights or women’s rights. I was against certain elements of them and got called a racist for it just like today when I speak out against the gangsta lifestyle and culture. I’ve never been a racist but I am big on honesty and calling things what they are, and not everything put forward on behalf of eliminating racism has been a good thing. Same with feminism. There’s were a lot of things that were utter nonsense coming out of the left with regard to both issues and anyone who dared to say so was immediately labeled a racist or sexist. The same thing exists today with regard to homosexual rights. The left is very, very strongly inclined to swallow hook, line and sinker everything that comes out of, or in favor of, whatever it is currently supporting. There is no limit where things go too far, no time when the left says, “Okay, you’re going a too far there” or “You know, that’s just plain bullshit, you shouldn’t be saying/doing/acting that way” to the members of whatever group they are trying to champion. If I say I see problems with and don’t necessarily agree with forced bussing, it does not mean I’m a racist! If I refuse to believe that women and men are identical apart from their reproductive systems and that no difference at all exists in their ability to do certain jobs, I am not a sexist. And yet I got called both all the time for saying things that would pass either without comment or in complete agreement here today. That kind of thing was the area where I had problems with regard to race and women’s rights. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Wait, is this one because the civil rights act passed or what? Please spell out what you’re trying to say here. No, it’s not because the civil rights act passed. It’s because of ill-considered liberal government social programs followed by the widespread use and glamorization of drugs followed by the propensity I just mentioned for the left to embrace and defend anything and everything coming out of a politically protected minority without regard to whether it’s a good thing or not. There is a reason why drugs and the gangsta culture and their associated crimes exist now where they didn’t in the black communities of the fifties and forties and back to the turn of the century. Life was segregated but otherwise pretty much normal. Black kids dressed nicely, went to schools where they actually learned things, and went on to live what most of us would consider normal lives. Segregation and racism were and are terrible things, but the people of the sixties didn’t invent them. They were centuries old even at that time. It was the people of the fifties and sixties, a great many of them conservative, who began to change that. And to the degree conservatives had had a voice in creating positive change in racism, it would have been accomplished more slowly no doubt, but without the pain and misery and loss of life that many members of the black community have had to endure, and without the lives of privation and poverty that so many of them are headed for now because of gangsta culture and the prevalence of the attitude that studying and trying to get ahead are “acting white” and are therefore to be scorned. Look at the grief Bill Cosby comes in for from the left for saying the same things I am, only he doesn’t get called a racist for it. He only gets called old and unsympathetic. But racist or old and divorced from the street, it all boils down to the same thing: blindly defending negative and destructive behavior just because it’s coming from a politically protected segment of society. ETA: Nevermind about Kennedy. I misread your point. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/824 "2010-03-22T10:29:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Not under the current plan, no. But I’ve been talking about when the time comes that single-payer prevails. People will take the path of least financial pain until the time comes that they need urgent or better care, and then they’ll find that none exist because private care can’t compete with government which doesn’t have to make a profit. Interesting fact: in the UK where actual universal health care is provided, there are still private insurance companies and private health providers. And they do just fine even when they’re forced to actually provide a competitive product rather than gouging a captive customer base. So this vision of government health care driving private insurers out of business is patently inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/825 "2010-03-22T10:42:41Z")
Shit, I come in here to watch Rand Rover fall facedown into a grave, and find that once again, a discussion has devolved into the Starving Artist show. Folks, I am so disappointed in you. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/826 "2010-03-22T11:18:45Z")
Why bother even trying to reason with Starving Artist? Has he ever conceded a point in all of his posting history? Just ignore the hysterical 'owd bastard. His generation are going to be with us for, what, another 5 years at the most? Just bide your time. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/827 "2010-03-22T11:20:00Z")
I’ll take the **SA** show over several pages of Liberal gloating any day. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/828 "2010-03-22T11:53:29Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Shit, I come in here to watch Rand Rover fall facedown into a grave, and find that once again, a discussion has devolved into the Starving Artist show. Folks, I am so disappointed in you. Same here. Unlike most Mondays, this morning I sprang out of bed to log into the SDMB to see everyone rubbing **Rand Rover** ’s face in it… and this thread is now the **Starving Artist** “Everything Used to be Better Until the Liberals Got Hold of it- and Get off my Damn Lawn” variety show? Screw that. Hey, **Rand Rover**? Neener neener! ---
**Author:** ![Fritz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c57346/32.png) [@Fritz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fritz)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/829 "2010-03-22T12:10:05Z")
“How’s that hopey-changey thing workin’ for ya?” **Just fine, thank you very much.** ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/830 "2010-03-22T12:16:18Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yes, but the eventual result of single payer will be that it will become the de facto only resort. Private companies who have to rely on profits to stay in business cannot compete with a government who has no such concerns. Hmm… that doesn’t seem to be the case in the British Isles. Ireland’s largest private healthcare company, [VHI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHI), has been around since 1957, whereas the UK’s largest private healthcare company, [BUPA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BUPA), was founded in 1947. Both nations have single-payer systems. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > 1. The counter-culture had nothing to do with racial equality. No, really, you could look that up, too. Take a look at films of Woodstock and anti-war rallies and be-ins and do-ins and hippies fucking on the sidewalks and parks in San Francisco and tell me how many black people you see. Well, I’m sure most of us can recall at least [one](http://www.promusicprod.ro/maximumrock/images/interviuri/img/jimi-hendrix-woodstockJimi.jpg) black guy from Woodstock… ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/831 "2010-03-22T13:13:13Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Hmm… that doesn’t seem to be the case in the British Isles. Ireland’s largest private healthcare company, [VHI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHI), has been around since 1957, whereas the UK’s largest private healthcare company, [BUPA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BUPA), was founded in 1947. Both nations have single-payer systems. The standard right-wing response is, “But this is AMERICA we’re talking about, here. We’re DIFFERENT.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/832 "2010-03-22T13:22:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And have the same Social Security plan. As it is, government employees are the only workers in America that don’t have to participate in Social Security. How arrogant is that? On this we can heartily agree. You’re wrong. This changed almost 3 decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/833 "2010-03-22T13:22:38Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > No. Some of the content of the bill becomes effective immediately, mostly the coverage limits and things, IIRC. Some of it will be within the next 60 days to 6 months. > > Make no mistake, the bill/soon to be law starts changing things the day after it gets signed. > [@Jophiel](#): > > [PDF](http://www.politico.com/static/PPM136_091221_managers_early_deliverables.html) detailing “immediate” (within the first six months) benefits of the Senate bill. I stand corrected. Thanks. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, that comes after single-payer and when the government starts running out money…which it always does (thanks to a preponderance of Democratic control of Congress the last eighty years). Funny. The rest of the civilized world has had single payer healthcare and has elected governments much more liberal than mainstream Democrats for 50-odd years, and it’s not bankrupting _them_. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/834 "2010-03-22T13:24:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I used the word allegedly because I’m not convinced that it’s accurate, and even if it is I’m not sure it’s germane. In a country of 300 million people, a certain number are going to die, and I happen to think that if a country of 300 million people has developed its health care to the point that less than two one-hundredths of one percent die for lack of it, that country does not need to be turning its health care over to a hugely inefficient, uncaring and hidebound government to make it better. This from a member of a party that believes that life is so sacred we can’t perform stell cell research because fertilized eggs are people. That life is so sacred that an early term abortion is murder. That even a goddamned ectopic pregnancy that has no chance of survival must be treated with honor and care to make sure that the fertilized egg is respected because by god that fertilized egg is a actual living breathing human being. Yeah. But if an actual living breathing human being, one not actually in the uterus or the fallopian tubes, if that actual living breathing human being out of the womb drops dead because the health insurance company does not want to treat her breast cancer well she was going to die anyway so who gives a damn. Just shut up. JUST SHUT UP. You and your fellow Republicans should never open your mouth on this topic again because all that happens when you do is ugly little toads come out. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/835 "2010-03-22T13:31:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Not under the current plan, no. But I’ve been talking about when the time comes that single-payer prevails. People will take the path of least financial pain until the time comes that they need urgent or better care, and then they’ll find that none exist because private care can’t compete with government which doesn’t have to make a profit. That must explain why there are [no other](http://scandinavia.ihi.com/) [private](http://www.nrma.com.au/health-insurance/index.shtml) [First](http://www.healthinsurance.co.uk/) [World](http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-health/) [health](http://www.nrma.com.au/health-insurance/index.shtml) [insurance](http://www.axa.de/servlet/PB/menu/-1/index.html) [companies](http://www.jd.gaic.com/) They just can’t survive the brutal socialist regimes brought on by that single payer system. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/836 "2010-03-22T13:52:08Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Same here. Unlike most Mondays, this morning I sprang out of bed to log into the SDMB to see everyone rubbing **Rand Rover** ’s face in it… and this thread is now the **Starving Artist** “Everything Used to be Better Until the Liberals Got Hold of it- and Get off my Damn Lawn” variety show? > > Screw that. Hey, **Rand Rover**? Neener neener! Variety…I don’t think that word means what you think it means… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/837 "2010-03-22T13:59:13Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > and Get off my Damn Lawn" variety show? [McCain says Democrats have not heard end of debate](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100322/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul_republicans): > [@](#): > > Sen. John McCain says Democrats who championed the historic health care bill that passed the House haven’t heard the last of the issue, predicting reprisals at the polls and in the courts. ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/838 "2010-03-22T13:59:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > _Sigh_ No it isn’t dumbass. In free enterprise, companies have to make a profit to stay in business. The government is under no such constraint. > > I can’t believe you are actually this stupid. Please tell me you’re just responding reflexively and without thinking it through…Oh, wait, that’s pretty much what liberals are known for anyway, isn’t it? > [@Enderw24](#): > > That must explain why there are > [no other](http://scandinavia.ihi.com/) > [private](http://www.nrma.com.au/health-insurance/index.shtml) > [First](http://www.healthinsurance.co.uk/) > [World](http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-health/) > [health](http://www.nrma.com.au/health-insurance/index.shtml) > [insurance](http://www.axa.de/servlet/PB/menu/-1/index.html) > [companies](http://www.jd.gaic.com/) > They just can’t survive the brutal socialist regimes brought on by that single payer system. HAHAHAHA are you a performance artist? I’d throw a dollar in your top hat any day. Oh wait, we can get the government to do it now!! ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/839 "2010-03-22T14:01:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You’ll be the happy titty-baby letting everyone else take care of you, while the Pubbies will still be their own men happily making their own way in life while still paying for you to have what you can’t provide for yourself. > > All things considered, being conservative is better. 😉 Yes folks, be conservative. It’s the adult male thing to do! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/840 "2010-03-22T14:16:18Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > The standard right-wing response is, “But this is AMERICA we’re talking about, here. We’re DIFFERENT.” We \*ARE \*different. We’re not Watusi. We’re not Spartans. We’re Americans, with a capital ‘A’, huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We’re the underdog. We’re mutts! Here’s proof: \*\*Starving Artist’s \*\*nose is cold! _- apologies to Ramis and Murray_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=43)