# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/981 "2010-03-23T20:40:48Z")
Teen pregnancy: “The most recent American teen birth rate of approximately 51.1 births per 1,000 adolescent females is consistent with historical trends and matches the 1920 figure.” [Teen Pregnancy - Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society](http://www.faqs.org/childhood/So-Th/Teen-Pregnancy.html) “The 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s included the twentieth century’s highest teen birth rates (respectively 79.5, 91.0, and 69.7 per thousand)” Good enough? How about this? Childbearing. The rate of teen childbearing in the United States has fallen steeply since the late 1950s, from an all time high of 96 births per 1,000 women aged 15-19 in 1957 to an all time low of 49 in 2000 (see chart below). [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html) ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/982 "2010-03-23T20:41:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s a shame you lack the pseudo-intelligence to come up with a, ahem, brain dead post like that yourself. Except for “pseudo” and “brain dead”, I humbly agree. She said what many of us were thinking far more eloquently than I could. > [@](#): > > I’ll give you a quick example. Remember when she said, “And you know who are the only people who complain about others pointing out racism? Racists.” > > See how she responded in exactly the way I said that liberals think? I guess this is where the disconnect is. When I hear someone talk about how messed up it is that we’re expected to be “politically correct” and not use words like “wetback” and “nigger” because of those dirty hippy liberals, I absolutely feel like that person is a raging racist. Granted, I don’t think any of those words have been outlawed, but I really don’t understand bitching about not being able to use them in polite company or to pollute the airwaves. > [@](#): > > Lefties in this thread are doing a most excellent job of showing the very inflexibility, hatred and intolerance for any view not their own that I’ve been accusing them of. It’s really pretty amusing to see so many lefties here so eagerly demonstrating the very behavior they’re trying so hard to deny. I’m gonna have to disagree with you here, kiddo. I’m about as socially Liberal as they come (though not particularly politically passionate) in that I’m pro-choice, pro-gun control, pro-gay marriage, etc. My parents, on the other hand, are staunchly Republican and _very_ religious. I respect their view on abortion because I understand their side, even if I don’t agree with it. Now, I do realize that there are outliers of both parties who think “the other side” can do no right and is clearly just batshit crazy, but I’d be willing to bet that the vast majority of us can respect some of the other side’s beliefs, even if we don’t share them. > [@](#): > > But since her post ended by calling me a moron (like approx. 5,800,00 other posts around here directed at right-wingers) I’m sure you think it’s genius. What you don’t realize is that this speaks more to your lack of intelligence than it does to whatever you regard as hers. Oddly enough, I cringed at the last line and seriously debated including it in my response. I did so because I wanted to show that I was quoting the whole post without actually taking up all of the space needed to quote the whole post. Some of the gems from her post, for me, included: > [@Drain Bead](#): > > If you can afford it, you can drive a Hummer towing another Hummer wherever you go. Because holy cow, that’s what it feels like the Right is demanding sometimes. > [@](#): > > …but the second you force your Jesus or Allah or Vishnu or Buddha or Cthulhu or FSM or what the hell ever on public high school kids at graduation, or people coming downtown to pay their parking ticket at the courthouse, or worse yet adorn the body of legislature with your religion, that’s when we’ll get a little testy. A longstanding cry of the Right has been that Liberals are trying to steal God from everything. I’m not saying that you fall into this bucket, but I promise you that I know MANY religious conservatives who feel this way. The separation of church and state is important to many of us on the Left because it’s a way to keep from ostracizing our citizens who worship differently than others… or who do not worship at all. Muslims, Buddhists and Athiests pay taxes too, why should they feel out of place or noticably unrepresented in a government building? Exactly, they shouldn’t. But since altering everything in government to cover EVERY belief system would be pretty overwhelming if not outright weird, let’s just keep our religions to ourselves for the sake of working together as a society. On a completely unrelated note, you’re kind of mean. It’s the Pit, I know. But just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/983 "2010-03-23T20:43:20Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > You know, for like .0037 seconds, I thought about taking SA off ignore, to see if he’d answered that in any substantive way. > > Then I stepped away from the pipe. Must have been that medical marijuana, which is destroying society BTW. The biggest thing to me that **SA** fails to address is that _something had to happen with healthcare in this country_. Healthcare costs are rising at 3x the pace of inflation, and the US already had the highest healthcare costs in the industrialized world. Talk to any HR director, person thinking about starting a business, or even thinking about switching jobs, and they’re going to tell you that healthcare is their number one concern. Even if this bill wasn’t the best solution out there, you’ve got to say it was _a try_ at solving it. The opponents of the bill didn’t have any ideas about what could be done about rising healthcare costs. At all. “Let’s keep everything exactly the same” doesn’t appear to be much of a solution when this express train of costs has been barrelling down towards us for over 20 years with no respite in sight. All of **SA** ’s nostalgia about the good old days doesn’t change the fact that a solution to healthcare problems was needed _right now_. I don’t give a damn whether things were better in the 1960’s, because we don’t have a time machine that will take us back there. I want to ask **SA** what he’d do about it _right now_, because saying “Well, back in the 60’s we should have…” is about as useful as any solution the Republicans in Congress came up with, which was no solution at all. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/984 "2010-03-23T20:44:52Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Starving Artist [exposed](http://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/grandpa_simpson_yelling_at_cloud.jpg). I always picture him like [this](http://www.imdb.com/media/rm4132608000/ch0008475). (on the far left, no pun intended) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/985 "2010-03-23T20:45:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s just that there’s so much self-righteous liberal bullshit that goes on around here, and so much over the top condemnation of the right, that occasionally it becomes necessary to fight fire with fire. I see. So your response to what you percieve as self-righteous bullshit is to post…self-righteous bullshit. Yeah, that’s really convincing. Seriously, you are without question one of the two or three most inept proponents of conservative principles I’ve ever seen. I seriously doubt there is a single person who, seeing how often and how aggressively you present yourself as a self-righteous, grudge-bearing prick, endlessly preaching hatred of anyone who happens to self-identify as liberal, would ever say, “Yeah, there’s someone to emulate”. About the only person less skilled than you at argument on conservative principles is probably **Clothahump** but I will give you the edge on word count. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/986 "2010-03-23T21:18:56Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > Teen pregnancy: > > “The most recent American teen birth rate of approximately 51.1 births per 1,000 adolescent females is consistent with historical trends and matches the 1920 figure.” [Teen Pregnancy - Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society](http://www.faqs.org/childhood/So-Th/Teen-Pregnancy.html) > > “The 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s included the twentieth century’s highest teen birth rates (respectively 79.5, 91.0, and 69.7 per thousand)” > > Good enough? > How about this? > > Childbearing. The rate of teen childbearing in the United States has fallen steeply since the late 1950s, from an all time high of 96 births per 1,000 women aged 15-19 in 1957 to an all time low of 49 in 2000 (see chart below). > [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html) Look, don’t you understand what the real problem is? Those slutty teenage girls aren’t ashamed any more. Why, they actually flaunt their little bastards! Civilization crumbles! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/987 "2010-03-23T22:23:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As flattering as it is that you seem to think genius is required to kick my ass, how about answering some of my charges instead of writing them off as psychological issues? Hey dumbass, we HAVE answered your charges. Again and again and again. But you simply prefer to stick your fingers in your ears and go “la-la-la, I can’t HEAR you!!!”, so what’s the use? Most people gave up a long time ago. So what’s the point? You know, definition of insanity and all that. :rolleyes: Besides, when asked for cites, you state you prefer to rely on your own personal experiences, because “I was there.” So why should anyone take you seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/988 "2010-03-23T22:37:06Z")
Isn’t there an incredibly over-simplistic nostalgia we could wallow in? [Of course there is.](http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-january-5-2010/even-better-than-the-real-thing) ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/989 "2010-03-23T22:45:19Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Look, don’t you understand what the real problem is? > > Those slutty teenage girls aren’t ashamed any more. Why, they actually flaunt their little bastards! Civilization crumbles! And they no longer have the decency to die from back alley abortions. Why, they go right to the clinic in broad daylight and everything! That is, if their state has a clinic. Oh, for the good old days when birth control was condoms and men\* couldn’t be relied upon to use them… oh, wait–that’s still true today! And those damned women libbers! Wanting jobs and education and stuff. Who wears the pants in the family, anyway? Why aren’t they content to just stay home and sew buttons on shirts, worry about ring around the collar and cook the Sunday roast? That’s all they’re good for. And who cares about her pleasure in bed–it’s a woman’s duty to service her husband. Everyone knows that. Her job is to be a wife and mother–why does she need a credit rating or a credit card in her own name? Jeesh–next thing we know, they’ll want equal pay for equal work! Thank god that’s never happened… \*yep–a broad brush, but a true one. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/990 "2010-03-23T22:58:58Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > And they no longer have the decency to die from back alley abortions… Oh, give me a break! More later, work intrudes. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/991 "2010-03-23T23:02:47Z")
Seriously, SA’s whole schtick can basically be summed up as “the world has gone to hell they started letting people who aren’t decent, god-fearing, property-owning white men actually have a say.” Bad enough that it’s stupid, but after the 837th time or so, it’s also boring as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/992 "2010-03-23T23:05:04Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > Teen pregnancy: > > “The most recent American teen birth rate of approximately 51.1 births per 1,000 adolescent females is consistent with historical trends and matches the 1920 figure.” [Teen Pregnancy - Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society](http://www.faqs.org/childhood/So-Th/Teen-Pregnancy.html) > > “The 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s included the twentieth century’s highest teen birth rates (respectively 79.5, 91.0, and 69.7 per thousand)” > > Good enough? > How about this? > > Childbearing. The rate of teen childbearing in the United States has fallen steeply since the late 1950s, from an all time high of 96 births per 1,000 women aged 15-19 in 1957 to an all time low of 49 in 2000 (see chart below). > [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html) What was the rate of teen marriage? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/993 "2010-03-23T23:16:01Z")
It was pretty high. Of course, one must consider that many if not most of them got married because they were pregnant. And frankly, I don’t consider “high rate of teen marriage” an indicator of a BETTER time. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/994 "2010-03-23T23:18:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Oh, give me a break! > > More later, work intrudes. Oh, goody. I haven’t had my dose of surreality yet. :rolleyes: Spare us both, **SA**. I don’t have the time, and I doubt you’ve got the strength. Let it go… my post wasn’t directed at you, specifically, but at the social mores of a previous time. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/995 "2010-03-23T23:26:17Z")
Mine was clearly directed at you, SA, but I can’t see your posts, so don’t trouble yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/996 "2010-03-23T23:26:42Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > What was the rate of teen marriage? Do I detect the beginning of a goalpost move? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/997 "2010-03-23T23:47:11Z")
Check the second cite given, here it is again [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html) There is a nice little chart showing that while the teen birth rate has gone down, the proportion of teen births that are non-marital has increased. All the data is there, not hidden. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/998 "2010-03-23T23:59:46Z")
It seems that in order for Starving Artist to be right, we have to all just accept his boundaries. He claims that unwed couples and children being raised by single parents are sure signs of civilization decline - I don’t see what the evidence is of that, but we are to accept it because he is old, and therefore he ‘knows’. Similarly, we are to accept that racism, homophobia, illegal abortions, etc were not ‘real’ problems back in the day, and therefore they just don’t matter. Because he said it, it is so. Boy, I can’t wait until I’m old enough to just declare nonsensical things to be facts. Tell me, SA, how old do you need to be before you can do that? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/999 "2010-03-24T00:04:25Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Boy, I can’t wait until I’m old enough to just declare nonsensical things to be facts. Tell me, SA, how old do you need to be before you can do that? Well, let’s see… SA said, above, that he’s 61 years old… and he’s been a member since 2003… You do the math. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1000 "2010-03-24T00:28:27Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > There is a nice little chart showing that while the teen birth rate has gone down, the proportion of teen births that are non-marital has increased. > > All the data is there, not hidden. Ok. . .aaand? What do we learn from this? Is the implied thesis that married teen pregnancy is a-ok, but unmarried teen pregnancy is bad? Unpack this for us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=51)