# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1041 "2010-03-25T07:00:39Z")
P.S. - And if you think about it, **Otto** , you might find it amusing that posters such as **Der Trihs** can rant and rave about how _EVIL_ America and conservatives are and how he’d use magical powers to kill every U.S. soldier, and he raises nary a complaint or criticism among the ignorance-fighters of the Dope. Some of them will even comment on occasion that perhaps he goes a little too far but they can see where he’s coming from. But let me hold liberal feet to the fire and point out the lives that have been lost and the misery that has been created by their attempts to reinvent the societal wheel and a grassroots movement forms to rally posters to ignore me. I don’t know what you call it when your opponents flee rather than own up to the consequences of their actions, but I call it victory. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1042 "2010-03-25T10:39:19Z")
Gee, you’re right, Starving Artist, the 1950s were pretty bad. Teen pregnancy rates were way higher than they were today. [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/1/gr050107.html) And you’re sure right that glamorizing street corner thugs is a sick and sad thing. > **[The Wild One (1953) ⭐ 6.7 | Crime, Drama, Romance](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047677/)** > > 1h 19m | Approved And drug dealers! > **[Al Capone (1959) ⭐ 6.7 | Biography, Crime, Drama](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052543/)** > > 1h 44m | Approved Kids growing up in an environment where learning is scoffed at, crime and drugs are everywhere. > **[JD MOVIES on DVD - Juvenile Delinquent Movies - 1950s JD Movies](https://www.thevideobeat.com/jd_movies.htm)** > > JD MOVIES on DVD! - EXCELLENT QUALITY! - JUVENILE DELINQUENTS - Hey kids! The VIDEO BEAT! is the No.1 spot for 1950s & 1960s Juvenile Delinquent Movies on DVD! If you dig vintage 50s & 60s JD movies featuring switchblades, leather jackets,... [http://web.archive.org/web/20080522083349/http://www.epcc.edu/nwlibrary/borderlands/15\_teens\_rebel.htm](http://web.archive.org/web/20080522083349/http://www.epcc.edu/nwlibrary/borderlands/15_teens_rebel.htm) [http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-148480358/violent-years-responses-juvenile.html](http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-148480358/violent-years-responses-juvenile.html) What’s the matter with kids today? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1043 "2010-03-25T11:23:58Z")
Hey, **Starving** , would you mind having one more go at explaining your worldview? I don’t think I quite got it the first thousand times. Also, please increase the word count; I’m sure that will make reading the same crap over and over again much more compelling. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1044 "2010-03-25T11:33:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’ll say this again for what is likely the millionth time: \*\*\*Race and women’s rights had nothing to do with the counter-culture revolution! \*\*\* > > The counter-culture revolution was about nothing but indulging in pleasure and avoiding responsibilty and consequence. It was driven by a bunch of naive, immature twenty-year-old college students and their dropout friends, and it centered primarily on music, drugs and sex - with the Vietnam war thrown in for good measure because being sent off to war interfered with indulging in music, drugs and sex. I find it utterly wrong-headed that you dismiss civil rights and the anti-war movement, things for which there is a concrete, verifiable voting record, as being irrelevant or only tangentially related to liberalism; and yet you draw an absolute causal link from cultural trends like music to current teen pregnancy rates, and condemn current political ideas because of it. I almost said that you implied an intent on the part of liberals, but I’m not sure if you’ve ever actually said that. So I’ll ask. **Starving Artist** , if liberalism begat sex, drugs, and rock and roll, and those things begat a host of social problems, are you saying that liberalism deliberately set out for those ends, that those ends should have been foreseen and avoided, or that it was inadvertant but liberals deserve the blame anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1045 "2010-03-25T11:58:03Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Hey, **Starving** , would you mind having one more go at explaining your worldview? I don’t think I quite got it the first thousand times. Also, please increase the word count; I’m sure that will make reading the same crap over and over again much more compelling. Stop that. I am aware that you are joking, but he’s not so bright. He might take you at your word, and his posts are already TRDR.\* - Too retarded, didn’t read. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1046 "2010-03-25T14:59:35Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I have never before read **SA** ’s posts in Paul Lynde’s voice. Now I will never be able _not_ to. Sorry, but I’m sticking with using Dana Carvey’s old man who ended all his SNL rants with “That’s the way it was and we LIKED it!” ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1047 "2010-03-25T20:43:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Do you call high school graduates who are functionally illiterate and can’t figure how to make change seemingly disfunctional? Do you call a society in which one in four high school girls has an STD seemingly disfunctional? Do you call a society that boasts a high school in which one of every eight girls is pregnant seemingly disfunctional? Less than half of all high schoolers are even sexually active, and 1 in 4 _sexually active_ teenagers contracts an STD ([cite](http://www.kff.org/youthhivstds/upload/U-S-Teen-Sexual-Activity-Fact-Sheet.pdf)). Only 7 percent of teenage girls get pregnant ([cite](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60P0XS20100126)). I have no idea where you get the idea that most high school graduates are illiterate, but since an ever-increasing number go on to 4-year colleges, I also assume that is untrue. Are any of the things you say backed up with facts? Look - I am 30 years younger than you, but I had the idyllic childhood you so love, and believe is gone - Mom stayed home with us while Dad went to work and brought home the bacon. We lived in a quaint little bungalow in a pleasant part of town - crime and drugs were not a problem. If I were to use your anecdote-as-fact model, I would say that the mid-to-late 80s were the golden age. Thing is I grew up and realized that my experience was far from universal and far from perfect, and furthermore that the world is vastly more complex than I thought it was when I was 14. I’m sorry that you haven’t realized this. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1048 "2010-03-25T21:24:17Z")
What you fail to realize is that I was already an adult by the time all that crap started. I turned 21 in 1969 and could readily see even then where all that shit was gonna go. I don’t have time right now to answer the rest of your post (or yours, **RA** ) but I’ll try to get back to them later. (And btw, you’re wrong about the rate of female teen STDs. It’s one in four female students - or at least it is according to MSNBC, ABC, and Dr. Sami L. Gottlieb, from the division of sexually transmitted disease prevention at the U.S. Centers for Disease and Prevention. [Cite](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=one+if+four+high+school+females+has+stds&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)) And yeah, more kids are going to college, where they write papers so full of spelling and word usage errors that only professors who’ve gotten used to it by now can figure out what they’re saying. (Generally speaking, that is. This board is evidence that some people can get through school while actually learing something. The point isn’t that no one learns anything, it’s that the number of those who do is so much smaller than it was prior to the counter-culture revolution and its after effects.) And just for the record, it isn’t that I so love the good old days; it’s that I’m so disgusted by what has happened since then. Again, that so-called ‘golden era’ only seems golden because things are so incredibly screwed up now. Nobody back then thought that era was golden, including me. And also for the record I was just as disgusted and contemptuous of what was happening in 1969 as I am now. If you’ve swallowed the Doper kool-aid and think I’m just a cranky old geezer looking back on a gilded age that never existed, you’ll be quite wrong. I was an adult when the counter-culture revolution occurred. I turned 21 in 1969 and know fully well what things were like then from an adult perspective. And for what it’s worth, I was just as appalled and disgusted by what was going on then as I am now. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1049 "2010-03-25T21:41:32Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > [(cite](http://www.kff.org/youthhivstds/upload/U-S-Teen-Sexual-Activity-Fact-Sheet.pdf)). Only 7 percent of teenage girls get pregnant ([cite](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60P0XS20100126)). From your first cite - > [@](#): > > about a third (34%) of young women become pregnant at least once before they reach the age of 20 And from your second cite - > [@](#): > > In 2006, 7 percent of all teenage girls got pregnant, according to the report. I think what you meant was that only 7% get pregnant in any given year. > [@](#): > > Are any of the things you say backed up with facts? This must be that thing called irony, if I am not mistaken. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1050 "2010-03-25T22:03:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And from your second cite -I think what you meant was that only 7% get pregnant in any given year.This must be that thing called irony, if I am not mistaken. SA said: > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Do you call a society that boasts a high school in which one of every eight girls is pregnant seemingly disfunctional? Implying that 1 in 8 high school girls are pregnant at _this exact moment_. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1051 "2010-03-25T22:10:23Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > SA said: > > Implying that 1 in 8 high school girls are pregnant at _this exact moment_. That’s my fault. I’ve been driving around the country spooging in high school swimming pools. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1052 "2010-03-25T22:42:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s my fault. I’ve been driving around the country spooging in high school swimming pools. Man, kids these days! With their spooging in swimming pools! Why, back in my day you spooged in the privacy of your own home, like a good God-fearing American, and you liked it! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1053 "2010-03-25T22:48:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I was an adult when the counter-culture revolution occurred. I turned 21 in 1969 and know fully well what things were like then from an adult perspective. And for what it’s worth, I was just as appalled and disgusted by what was going on then as I am now. But intrigued. C’mon, you can admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1054 "2010-03-25T22:52:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Starving Artist > I was an adult when the counter-culture revolution occurred. I turned 21 in 1969 and know fully well what things were like then from an adult perspective. And for what it’s worth, I was just as appalled and disgusted by what was going on then as I am now. Ah this explains all. You were totally shot down in 1969 by a hot hippie chick who called you “old”, right? Tried to show you were cool by sharing a joint and ended up choking and sputtering while everyone laughed at you? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1055 "2010-03-26T01:19:19Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > SA said: > > Implying that 1 in 8 high school girls are pregnant at _this exact moment_. I implied no such thing. I asked if **OttoDaFe** would call a society that boasts **a** high school in which one of every eight girls is pregnant ‘seemingly disfunctional’? I said nothing about all high school girls being pregnant, and I said nothing about “_this exact moment_”. So in very short order, **Meyer6** , you’ve been wrong about the number of high school girls with STDs; the number I said were pregnant; and what you thought I was saying exists _right now_. You imply that I don’t know what I’m talking about by asking if I ever say things that are backed up by fact, and yet you’ve been wrong about virtually everything I said even though the facts of what I said were right there in front of your face in black and white. As **Shodan** said: "This must be that thing called irony, if I am not mistaken. > [@Euphoious Polemic](#): > > Ah this explains all. You were totally shot down in 1969 by a hot hippie chick who called you “old”, right? Nope, I got lots of ‘hippie chick’ action. They all wanted me to ‘tune in, turn on, and drop out’. The ones who succeeded in turning me on got to stick around for a while. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1056 "2010-03-26T01:45:06Z")
Uh, that was “turn on, tune in, drop out”. It may appear that the sequence was arbitrary, but actually, no. Kinda like the Viking chief briefing his crew before attacking the village: “All right, now get it straight this time, and remember: its attack, plunder, pillage, rape and then burn!” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1057 "2010-03-26T02:08:07Z")
Yeah, you’re right. I always did have trouble keeping that straight. Just think of all the time I wasted tuning in first. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1058 "2010-03-26T02:17:11Z")
And with such tragic result. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1059 "2010-03-26T02:31:44Z")
I know, another life spent tragically not wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1060 "2010-03-26T02:43:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I implied no such thing. I asked if **OttoDaFe** would call a society that boasts **a** high school in which one of every eight girls is pregnant ‘seemingly disfunctional’? > > I said nothing about all high school girls being pregnant, and I said nothing about “_this exact moment_”. > > So in very short order, **Meyer6** , you’ve been wrong about the number of high school girls with STDs; the number I said were pregnant; and what you thought I was saying exists _right now_. Okay, so for you to claim this dysfunctional society, only one single high school in America needs to have a high teen pregnancy rate? That’s even dumber than what I thought you were trying to say. And as for the STD rate - it seems to be reported differently depending on what website you look at, which is suspicious, but I will note that your cite lists HPV as far and away the most common STD in teens, and testing for that was not developed until the mid-70s and was not common until well after that, so I have no idea how you propose to compare those rates to the ones in your halcyon youth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=54)