# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1101 "2010-03-26T19:46:18Z")
I agree. I’m socially liberally but generally I am fiscally conservative. I just happen to think that healthcare shouldn’t be an issue of wealth. For me it’s a responsibility we have as a nation to each other. It isn’t just about taking care of people who refuse to work, those people are already getting health cards on public assistance (don’t get me started on that program’s need for an overhaul). We’re talking about people who are working or want to work who can’t afford the sky high rates of private insurance. Having people have access to doctors and health providers will, IMHO, help in the long run on via many aspects. Healthier people should equal less people calling off. If people can afford to go to the doctor when it’s a cough they might not end up in the emergency department with severe bronchitis. A lot of those emergency visits get written off and paid for by money from the state as many hospitals are partially funded by counties and states. The examples could go on and on… ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1102 "2010-03-26T19:47:49Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Well, I wouldn’t say that you are selfish for being against the healthcare initiative. People have a lot of reasons for not agreeing with it and many (if not most of them) have nothing to do with being selfish IMHO. OK, so, apparently my first post on this subject was not directed at you. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1103 "2010-03-26T19:51:09Z")
Guess I’d better change my title. Welcome back! ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1104 "2010-03-26T19:52:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > In my post above, all I’m saying is that I think it is perfectly legitimate for me to now say “actually, you are being selfish by wanting to force me to pay for something that serves your interests instead of mine.” If the liberal then says “no, x would serve the country’s interests, not just mine,” then I would say “no, it serves your belief about the country’s interests, which shows why you are being selfish.” **Sleeps** has already made the point, but pick any government program you support (let’s say the military here) and I could turn it back around on you. The money we pay for the military serves _your_ belief about the country’s interests; it’s not some objective truth. Not that I’m stupid enough to think we don’t need a military; but the money we’ve spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns, for instance, can’t be said to be unanimously accepted as necessary. But even when we’re not at war, the military budget could arguably be drastically cut with no adverse effect on our defense. I was in the Army, and I saw massive amounts of money wasted on a daily basis. There should definitely be more oversight to ensure our tax money is spent wisely with any huge government agency, but the fact that they try to get away with shit (just like private enterprises) doesn’t mean the agencies themselves don’t serve the country’s interests. And **Starving Artist** , people who have spoken out against the war(s) or military spending (or in favor of the health care bill, for that matter, as we’ve seen this week) have been called a lot worse than “selfish” by conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1105 "2010-03-26T19:53:15Z")
SWB, that’s super that you think people should be able to get health care whether or not they can afford it. But that alone is not enough to justify a huge new government program that will affect a huge portion of the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1106 "2010-03-26T19:55:52Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > But that alone is not enough to justify a huge new government program that will affect a huge portion of the economy. Actually yes, it is. QED. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1107 "2010-03-26T20:02:43Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > **Sleeps** has already made the point, but pick any government program you support (let’s say the military here) and I could turn it back around on you. The money we pay for the military serves _your_ belief about the country’s interests; it’s not some objective truth. Again, you are getting too far afield from my first post, and you are not making any sense. I haven’t ever proposed to a liberal that the government have a military–that program already exists. And if I did propose that, and a liberal said what you say above, I would not call them selfish. I would say “super, so now you know how I feel when I say I don’t want my money spent on programs designed to re-distribute wealth.” So you can’t “turn my post back around on me” or whatever. That doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1108 "2010-03-26T20:07:35Z")
> [@](#): > > …But that alone is not enough to justify a huge new government program that will affect a huge portion of the economy. Oh, yes, yes it is. Because without it, people will suffer and die. Our people, more to the point, Americans. And just as we pay for a military to protect them from hordes of rampaging Canadians, plundering for our beer and our women, so do we also protect our people from needless suffering. Because they are our people. And if they are not, well, who’s people are they? The free market, blessings and peace be upon it, has had its chance, and failed more or less miserably. Because it is motivated by profit, which noble motive can sometimes be warped into greed, which means people get sick and die because a spreadsheet says so. Of course, we are loathe to violate the sanctity of private property, peace be upon it. Just as we are loathe to drag a young man off to the Army when he’d rather stay home with Mom. But them’s the breaks. And also, because we say so. Because we went to the Boss and said, here’s our plan. And the Boss said, looks groovy, go for it! And we are. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1109 "2010-03-26T20:12:13Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Actually yes, it is. QED. Oh, OK, I never looked at it like that. Your excellent argument has convinced me. So I guess you see no legitimate objections to the “tax lawyers don’t have to pay tax” bill, right? As long as it is passed by a duly-elected majority and signed by the president, you’d have no problem with that bill at all. If someone made the argument that the law is idiotic and not something the government should do, you’d say “hey, it was passed by a majority, so you can’t say that it isn’t something the government should do.” ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1110 "2010-03-26T20:18:26Z")
Luci, charity is part of the private sector, so you caan save your misunderstanding of how the free market works for another thread. But you don’t like charity because it doesn’t have the power to force people to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1111 "2010-03-26T20:19:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Again, you are getting too far afield from my first post, and you are not making any sense. I haven’t ever proposed to a liberal that the government have a military–that program already exists. And if I did propose that, and a liberal said what you say above, I would not call them selfish. I would say “super, so now you know how I feel when I say I don’t want my money spent on programs designed to re-distribute wealth.” > > So you can’t “turn my post back around on me” or whatever. That doesn’t make any sense. Makes sense if you actually read what I was responding to (which you wrote, BTW). Which was calling somebody selfish because they supported something that served _your beliefs_ about what the country’s best interests were, whether it be a “redistribution of wealth” (or whatever distortion you want to use to characterize the health care plan) or some defense program that’s been around for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1112 "2010-03-26T20:22:25Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Actually, I wasn’t talking to you at all. Shouldn’t you be planning to leave the country, or curl up and cry with your binky or something? And we were talking about whether or not conservatives or liberals are selfish with regard to demands for funding expansion of government, and not gay marriage. So we weren’t talking to you at all. > [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > And Starving Artist, people who have spoken out against the war(s) or military spending (or in favor of the health care bill, for that matter, as we’ve seen this week) have been called a lot worse than “selfish” by conservatives. And we weren’t talking about war expenditures either. War is not a government social program. > [@Sleeps With Butterflies](#): > > Plus, you’re twisting the parameters of what’s been said anyway. Now you’ve twisted it so that you want me to give you an example of a conservative calling someone selfish for not wanting to expand government. Do you always argue so dishonestly or is it this topic? What’s dishonest about it? The simple fact of the matter is that liberals want to expand government and conservatives don’t. Thus there is scant opportunity for conservatives to call liberals selfish in that regard to begin with, even if they were inclined to do so. But still the fact remains that historically whenever accusations of selfishness get hurled, it’s liberals who are making the assertion. > [@Sleeps With Butterflies](#): > > You came trundling into my comment #1088 to Rand Rover where I was simply giving his answer back to him and then twisted it to your own ignorant question. What crap No, dear. This is a message board, one where people are free to respond to things other people post, whether directed toward them or not…you know, kind of like what **DianaG** did with my comment about liberals always wanting more government. In short, it’s in the nature of the board. Once you grow up a little and get some real world expericence you’ll be able to see that. In the meantime I will continue to trundle where I like, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1113 "2010-03-26T20:28:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And we weren’t talking about war expenditures either. War is not a government social program. Damn - too bad I didn’t mention general military spending or the health care bill or anything. You got me. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1114 "2010-03-26T20:31:00Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > You talk a lot about beliefs. Do you think it is impossible to know (with some arbitrary level of confidence) that some policy can improve social welfare? Not necessarily a liberal policy, per se, but _any_ policy? Or are we forever stuck in the world of competing beliefs of equal validity? Just saw this post. You and I have talked at great length about my theory of government, so you should already know that I don’t think the government should do something just because it would improve social welfare. Therefore, it doesn’t matter whether or not an improvement in social welfare can be objectively proven–that alone is not enough to justify government action. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1115 "2010-03-26T20:38:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And we weren’t talking about war expenditures either. War is not a government social program. Sure about that? Last I heard, a pretty sizable chunk of my \*wealth \*had been \*redistributed \*to pay for desert camouflage and whatnot. Returns have been disappointing, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1116 "2010-03-26T20:41:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, dear. This is a message board, one where people are free to respond to things other people post, whether directed toward them or not…you know, kind of like what **DianaG** did with my comment about liberals always wanting more government. In short, it’s in the nature of the board. Once you grow up a little and get some real world expericence you’ll be able to see that. In the meantime I will continue to trundle where I like, thank you very much. Yes, dick. I don’t care if you take my comment and respond with your stupid remarks. What I take exception to is you taking my comment and twisting it to frame a question that wasn’t asked. I was responding to the idea that **Rand Rover** presented. He said that someone asking him to pay for something he didn’t believe in was selfish so I used a different example and called him selfish right back. You wanted to make it into a LIBERALS LURVE BIG GUBMENT DURRRRRR and how nobody in the history of life itself could ever find an example of a conservative asking for a bigger government. Also, your retarded “real world experience” bullshit is hilarious since it’s coming from some slack jawed moron who is stuck in the 50s. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1117 "2010-03-26T20:43:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Guess I’d better change my title. Welcome back! Ha! Thanks 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1118 "2010-03-26T20:57:48Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Also, your retarded “real world experience” bullshit is hilarious since it’s coming from some slack jawed moron who is stuck in the 50s. No, actually the time I most approve of existed from the country’s inception to roughly 1969 - a period of close to 200 years. (This last in case, as a victim of today’s educational system, you don’t have a calculator handy.) You and your ilk are the ones who for some reason keep trying to define it as the fifties. And yes, problems existed by then, but they were getting better decade by decade - as they had throughout the country’s existence - and problems of the scope and tragic consequence that we have now weren’t even on the horizon. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1119 "2010-03-26T21:02:30Z")
So things got better and better for 200 years until your teen years, and suddenly things started getting worse and worse? :dubious: “Subjective” doesn’t even _begin_ to describe your POV. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1120 "2010-03-26T21:07:41Z")
Oh, give me a break. :rolleyes: First of all, I was an adult by the time the counter-culture revolution happened. And second of all, the counter-culture revolution actually happened. (Or is it your opinion that things have just progressed smoothly and naturally and that no particular upheaval occurred somewhere around…oh, I don’t know…_THE LATE SIXTIES_!!?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=57)