# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1121 "2010-03-26T21:14:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, actually the time I most approve of existed from the country’s inception to roughly 1969 - a period of close to 200 years. (This last in case, as a victim of today’s educational system, you don’t have a calculator handy.) You and your ilk are the ones who for some reason keep trying to define it as the fifties. > > And yes, problems existed by then, but they were getting better decade by decade - as they had throughout the country’s existence - and problems of the scope and tragic consequence that we have now weren’t even on the horizon. Blah blah blah. Do you honestly believe that your criticisms of people you don’t know are witty or have any sting at all? Honestly, do you sit back and think “I sure scored with that one!” because it’s rather sad and pathetic coming from someone who wants to tell us about how civilized and fantastic things used to be. If you are a product of those times, may I say a hearty HALLELUJAH! that they are gone. My sincere condolences that you’ve outlived your glory days and have only the memories of your imaginary Utopia to keep you warm in your dwindling twilight years. Now kindly bugger off. If I wanted to hear about how things were when milk was a dollar a gallon, I’d visit some sweet senior citizen in a nursing home who has something of use to say. Now, as none of this has anything to do with healthcare reform. Piss off. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1122 "2010-03-26T21:22:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > (Or is it your opinion that things have just progressed smoothly and naturally and that no particular upheaval occurred somewhere around…oh, I don’t know…_THE LATE SIXTIES_!!?) Upheavals happened pretty often in American history. I recall a particular instance when half the country rebelled. It’s just _that_ particular upheaval you’ve decided is the root of all evil in the US. And it only pisses _you_ off. I repeat: subjective only begins to describe you. For me, moving toward government-run healthcare is just another instance of the US getting better, on the same gradual path as the institution of libraries, the abolition of slavery, banking regulations, anti-trust law, civil liberties, blah blah blah. The US slowly keeps getting better in spite of the people who want to go backward. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1123 "2010-03-26T21:34:02Z")
Nope. Government-run health care (and I’m surprised you are willing to call it that) is a huge step backward. Large social programs are a huge trap that are hard to avoid in a democracy. We had managed to avoid a big part of that trap for some time, but Obama had to go against the will of the people to try to salvage his presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1124 "2010-03-26T21:36:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. Government-run health care (and I’m surprised you are willing to call it that) is a huge step backward. What this is isn’t government-run, but it is a step toward it. That’s why I said “moving toward.” > [@](#): > > Large social programs are a huge trap that are hard to avoid in a democracy. We had managed to avoid a big part of that trap for some time, but Obama had to go against the will of the people to try to salvage his presidency. You mean the will of the people who elected him and support the bill? ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1125 "2010-03-26T21:51:09Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. Government-run health care (and I’m surprised you are willing to call it that) is a huge step backward. Large social programs are a huge trap that are hard to avoid in a democracy. It’s a huge step backward _in your opinion_. Why are large social programs a huge trap? What is the problem (other than poor you parting with a small amount of your money to help create a productive society)? Why haven’t these 'huge trap’s brought down Canada or Britain or anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1126 "2010-03-26T21:58:03Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > …Obama had to go against the will of the people to try to salvage his presidency. Huh? Speaking of cognitive disonance, how does this work? He salvages his Presidency by defying the will of the majority? (Meaning the people who elected him?) Or his Presidency fails because he bows to the overwhelming will of the minority? WTF?!!?!? Like most of the drivel coming from the conservative side, this is pure horse puckey. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1127 "2010-03-26T21:58:06Z")
They have “brought down” countries that have enacted them. Just look at the many articles lamenting the brain drain ferom countries with the huge tax rates necessary to support these programs. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1128 "2010-03-26T22:00:04Z")
Look at the polls. A majority opposed this health care reform bill, but Obama was clamoring to pass it anyway. This bill was not the will of the majority of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1129 "2010-03-26T22:00:26Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. Government-run health care (and I’m surprised you are willing to call it that) is a huge step backward. Large social programs are a huge trap that are hard to avoid in a democracy. We had managed to avoid a big part of that trap for some time, but Obama had to go against the will of the people to try to salvage his presidency. The overwhelming majority of Americans want health care reform with a public option. That is the only reason the polls are even close now; the bill that was passed was not liberal enough for the majority of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1130 "2010-03-26T22:06:23Z")
The majority of Americans (including me, to be frank) do not yet know in any great detail exactly what is, and isn’t, in this new law. Most of them only know that they’ve heard a huge amount of fear mongering about it. Some of us have learned that most of the fear mongering is based entirely on lies, and we discount it. More and more Americans will discover the same reality once the frenzy fades out of the news cycle. To say that a majority of Americans oppose this law is partisan rhetoric at best, and a pure bullshit lie at worst. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1131 "2010-03-26T22:08:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Look at the polls. Since when is required that the president govern according to the poll numbers? IIRC, Republicans mocked Clinton for paying attention to polls. Polls are not elections. You should know that, but appear to have forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1132 "2010-03-26T22:09:21Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Guess what, retard? It’s not just _your_ money. It’s my money, too. Nobody drafted a bill specifically targeting your wallet. Funny how I never hear you bitching about your money being taken to fund the military. We all pay for shit we might not necessarily agree with. It’s called living in a society. [Costanza]“You know we’re living in a SOCIETY!”[/Costanza] > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Look at the polls. A majority opposed this health care reform bill, but Obama was clamoring to pass it anyway. This bill was not the will of the majority of Americans. Now you want to look at polls? Right after the bill passed, approval for the bill jumped to 49% approve, 40% disprove. Yes, by all means let’s listen to the polls :rolleyes: I’m fine with whatever methodology you want though. Polls, tea leaves, or shapes of clouds, no matter your sampling I’ve already got my hands in your wallet and am not letting go! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1133 "2010-03-26T22:13:57Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Polls are not elections. You should know that, but appear to have forgotten. I’m a little leery of relying heavily on this argument, even though I alluded to it myself. Lefties railed about the whole “accountability moment” bullshit before, and to stand on it now is a gigantic double standard. Even so, the polls don’t say what **RR** thinks they say. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1134 "2010-03-26T22:14:10Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > It’s a huge step backward _in your opinion_. Why are large social programs a huge trap? What is the problem (other than poor you parting with a small amount of your money to help create a productive society)? Why haven’t these 'huge trap’s brought down Canada or Britain or anyone else? I think he’s “proved” somewhere around here that Canada has self-destructed it’s economy over UHC and does not actually exist anymore as a viable country. It had something to do with how Canada used to have high unemployment for a few years in the 80’s and 90’s and even though it’s currently lower than the unemployment rate in the US right now, that somehow doesn’t count. “Brain Drain”? How very ‘90’s of you. It’s not really an issue anymore in Canada. Even in the 90’s, [Canada received more university graduates than it lost to the United States.](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/studies-etudes/81-003/feature-caracteristique/5001808-eng.htm)Canada’s economic success is now luring top US talent north. In the 2000s, Canadian productivity grew while the US’ evened out.[Here’s a nice article for RR to read](http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/article.jsp?content=20080625_50113_50113) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1135 "2010-03-26T22:23:03Z")
> [@Sleeps With Butterflies](#): > > Blah blah blah. Do you honestly believe that your criticisms of people you don’t know are witty or have any sting at all? Honestly, do you sit back and think “I sure scored with that one!” because it’s rather sad and pathetic coming from someone who wants to tell us about how civilized and fantastic things used to be. If you are a product of those times, may I say a hearty HALLELUJAH! that they are gone. > > My sincere condolences that you’ve outlived your glory days and have only the memories of your imaginary Utopia to keep you warm in your dwindling twilight years. Now kindly bugger off. If I wanted to hear about how things were when milk was a dollar a gallon, I’d visit some sweet senior citizen in a nursing home who has something of use to say. What I honestly believe is that people like you have caused tremendous problems in this country that you refuse to face…or even to acknowlege…and that you choose instead to make fun of my age and pretend that it negates my arguments. So when you whinge about 45,000 deaths a year from no health care (0.00015% of the population, btw) or the number of lives lost in Iraq, both of which absolutely pale in comparison to the deaths and ruined lives that have resulted from forty years of liberal social predominance, it rings hollow…somewhat like your skull. And by the way, in the summertime I mow the lawns of my sister, my two neices and a sixty-seven year old single woman who lives across the street, all in one day and in as much as 110 degree heat. Think you could keep up, toots? ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1136 "2010-03-26T22:26:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > They have “brought down” countries that have enacted them. Just look at the many articles lamenting the brain drain ferom countries with the huge tax rates necessary to support these programs. Brain drain has been massively overstated, at least in recent years - Canada attracts more educated people than it loses to the US, by far ([cite](http://www.straightgoods.com/Analyze/0018.shtml)). And while brain drain still occurs in Britain, it is overwhelmingly to other ‘liberal’ countries, like Canada and Australia ([cite](http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/02/brain-drain-in-uk-biggest-exodus-for.html)). It doesn’t look like social programs like UHC are ‘bringing down’ those countries. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1137 "2010-03-26T22:27:42Z")
Rammin’! Crammin’! Jammin’ it down de troat! (_wooooo_-type warbling noise…) With apologies to the spirit of Bob Marely. Jah love, Bob. Rammin’! Crammin’! Jammin’ it down de troat! (_wooooo_-type warbling noise…) I mean, we tried reason, to no avail, so what the hell, I’m gonna just gloat. I’m not a very nice person. I have reliable testimony to that effect, plus some restraining orders, so…what the hell. Might as well get some negative juice out of it… We be rammin’! Crammin’! Jammin’ it down de troat! (_wooooo_-type warbling noise…) Gloat, gloat. Lord it over. Neener-neener. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1138 "2010-03-26T22:28:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think he’s “proved” somewhere around here that Canada has self-destructed it’s economy over UHC and does not actually exist anymore as a viable country. > > It had something to do with how Canada used to have high unemployment for a few years in the 80’s and 90’s and even though it’s currently lower than the unemployment rate in the US right now, that somehow doesn’t count. > > “Brain Drain”? How very ‘90’s of you. It’s not really an issue anymore in Canada. Even in the 90’s, [Canada received more university > graduates than it lost to the United States.](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/studies-etudes/81-003/feature-caracteristique/5001808-eng.htm)Canada’s economic success is now luring top US talent north. In the 2000s, Canadian productivity grew while the US’ evened out.[Here’s a nice article for RR to read](http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/article.jsp?content=20080625_50113_50113) Oooh, beaten to the punch! And with more official-looking cites too. Damn you, EP! ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1139 "2010-03-26T22:31:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So when you whinge about 45,000 deaths a year from no health care (0.00015% of the population, btw) or the number of lives lost in Iraq, both of which absolutely pale in comparison to the deaths and ruined lives that have resulted from forty years of liberal social predominance, it rings hollow…somewhat like your skull. > > And by the way, in the summertime I mow the lawns of my sister, my two neices and a sixty-seven year old single woman who lives across the street, all in one day and in as much as 110 degree heat. Think you could keep up, toots? Please provide cites that show the exact number of people who have been killed or harmed by ‘liberal social predominance’. You don’t get to just make up your own statistics. And mowing lawns is your big claim to being a tough guy? Ooooh, I’m impressed. Also, it sounds like your sister and neices are taking advantage of you. I guess they know an easy mark when they see one. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1140 "2010-03-26T22:32:02Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So when you whinge about 45,000 deaths a year from no health care (0.00015% of the population, btw) or the number of lives lost in Iraq, both of which absolutely pale in comparison to the deaths and ruined lives that have resulted from forty years of liberal social predominance, it rings hollow…somewhat like your skull. You keep talking about all these deaths and ruined lives caused by liberalism. Do you have a cite for any of these and how exactly they were caused? Was it toxic glue on the back of food stamps? What? Throw us a bone here. I suspect it is simply another thing that exists inside your own head. ETA Ohh missed by 1 minute. Damn you **Meyer6**! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=58)