# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1161 "2010-03-26T23:50:54Z")
Here’s a most interesting graph regarding health care: [Objectivism vs Empirical Reality](http://aynrandcontrahumannature.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2010-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=50). Any comments, Rand Rover? ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1162 "2010-03-26T23:53:05Z")
In one of my previous posts I cited ‘brain drain’ stats for Britain - a country which does indeed have brain drain problems, but most emmigrants are headed to Canada, Australia, or continental Europe. So there is obviously something else at play other than tax rate and liberal ideals. Canada makes a good comparison to the US because our cultures are similar in many ways, and the history of the two countries is similar. Anti-UHCers such as yourself hate references to Canada and desperately want to dismiss them out of hand. If you want to cite some European country do your own legwork and find some relevant cites. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1163 "2010-03-27T03:00:56Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > There are places in the world worse than many countries with large social programs and high taxes, and lots of people go from those places to those countries. But people already in those countries with high ability are still clamoring to get out. The fact that people from worse places go to those countries doesn’t sound like anything to crow about to me. I’d like you to check out my thread ["Is the German model a better form of Capitalism?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=556537)". Here, I think, is an example of the kind of government you oppose. High taxes and the most expensive social programs in the world. Guess what? Their economy also has some of the best stats in the world. There doesn’t appear to be a brain drain either. What is your answer to that? ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1164 "2010-03-27T03:56:48Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I never advocated mobocracy. I just pointed out that the health care reform bill that passed was not supported by a majority of people. I find it amazing that the Democrats managed to win huge majorities in both houses of Congress, plus a major-league ass-kicking of John McCain in the 2008 election by advocating health-care policies not supported by the majority of the American people. I blame ACORN. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1165 "2010-03-27T05:08:01Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > I blame ACORN. You may have common sense backing you, but **Rand Rover** has **THE polls** , just as Karl Rove had **[THE math](http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2006/11/karl_rove_on_th.html):** > [@](#): > > ROVE: Yeah, I’m looking at all these, Robert, and adding them up, and I add up to a Republican Senate and Republican House. You may end up with a different math, but you’re entitled to your math, I’m entitled to THE math. > SIEGEL: Well, I don’t know if we’re entitled to our different math, but you’re certainly - > ROVE: I said THE math. I said you’re entitled to yours. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1166 "2010-03-27T05:14:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If you guys only knew. This is too funny! > > A quick rundown of the music **Starvey** has close by finds Steely Dan, Nine Inch Nails, Mark Morrison (_Return of the Mack_, a longtime favorite), The Jazzmasters, R.L. Burnside, George Michael, ZZ Top, Paul Hardcastle, Eric Clapton, the Sneaker Pimps (plus some Kelli Ali solo stuff), Dave Brubeck, Franchesca Gagnon (Alegria), Corrine Bailey Rae, Herbie Hancock, Santana, Elton John, Van Morrison, The Game, Valeska Jacobowicz, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Jimmie Vaughn, etc. Shall I go on? A lot is older, granted, but you’ll notice there’s not a Pat Boone or Fabian anywhere in the mix. So you listen to shitty music from 5 decades instead of just the one magical decade you love so much? Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1167 "2010-03-27T05:16:33Z")
So rap is too vulgar, but you don’t mind NIN? Wow. (FTR, I LOVE NIN) ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1168 "2010-03-27T10:30:16Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’d like you to check out my thread ["Is the German model a better form of Capitalism?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=556537)". Here, I think, is an example of the kind of government you oppose. High taxes and the most expensive social programs in the world. Guess what? Their economy also has some of the best stats in the world. There doesn’t appear to be a brain drain either. > > What is your answer to that? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again. Folks, I’m currently on the way to the airport for a vacation, so please call yourselves idiots for the next week or so. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1169 "2010-03-27T10:52:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Just saw this post. You and I have talked at great length about my theory of government, so you should already know that I don’t think the government should do something just because it would improve social welfare. Therefore, it doesn’t matter whether or not an improvement in social welfare can be objectively proven–that alone is not enough to justify government action. That wasn’t what I asked. I am just trying to understand how you _know_ what you claim to do and on what grounds you think that other peoples’ opinions are unknowable. You assert very strongly that pretty much under any circumstances, low taxes and minimal government are always good, but that it is impossible to make a social welfare argument because it is just “belief”. Regardless of your beliefs about the role of government, this logic seems pretty unsustainable. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1170 "2010-03-27T11:59:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again. If the laws of physics were as sloppy as your economic imperatives, we’d call them ‘suggested guidelines’ and people would make a habit of ignoring them. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1171 "2010-03-27T14:17:56Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What previous assertion? I never said anything about economic collapse. Let’s recap. First, we have **Meyer6** : > [@Meyer6](#): > > It’s a huge step backward _in your opinion_. Why are large social programs a huge trap? What is the problem (other than poor you parting with a small amount of your money to help create a productive society)? Why haven’t these 'huge trap’s brought down Canada or Britain or anyone else? Then you: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > They have “brought down” countries that have enacted them. Just look at the many articles lamenting the brain drain ferom countries with the huge tax rates necessary to support these programs. Then finally, yours truly: > [@Fuji](#): > > This is a rather disingenuous equivalence you’ve asserted. [Brain drain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain) != economic collapse. > > For example, despite large numbers of Indian professionals [emigrating to the USA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_American#Immigration), the Indian economy’s performance over the last decade was one of the greatest in the world, averaging [over 7% per annum](http://business.mapsofindia.com/india-gdp/history.html). > > Although taxes do not reach Western European levels, it should be noted that the top bracket income tax rate is 30% and there is also a 12.5% VAT, as well as [property taxes](http://www.indiahousing.com/india-property-tax-rates.html) : _“Although there are many other forms of taxes in India like Income Tax, Sales tax etc yet the property tax is the single largest source of revenue for government.”_ _You_ were the one who presented brain drain as purported evidence for societies being “brought down”. Your words. I simply offered evidence that you were mistaken in asserting this relationship. You then, as you usually do when presented with evidence that contradicts your prior beliefs, shrugged it off. Still, you’re a helluva lot more entertaining than that colostomy bag, **curlcoat** , so you’ve got that going for you. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1172 "2010-03-27T14:33:59Z")
Relatively speaking, I guess a _room-temperature_ fireplace poker up the ass… ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1173 "2010-03-27T15:15:15Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So rap is too vulgar, but you don’t mind NIN? Wow. (FTR, I LOVE NIN) Also, the guy kvetching about violence in music listens to Eric “I Shot The Sherrif” Clapton. And complains about glorifying drugs while listening to Steely Dan (“…the fine Columbian makes tonight a wonderful thing”). ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1174 "2010-03-27T16:03:34Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Eric “I Shot The Sherrif” Clapton. In these our civilization’s waning years, he’d’ve shot the deputy too. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1175 "2010-03-27T17:47:56Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > _You_ were the one who presented brain drain as purported evidence for societies being “brought down”. Your words. I simply offered evidence that you were mistaken in asserting this relationship. You then, as you usually do when presented with evidence that contradicts your prior beliefs, shrugged it off. Yeah, I also like the way he completely disregards both Canada and Germany as proof of anything. They are just anomolies, not worthy of note in his mind. One of the problems with people like him is that the only evidence they will accept is that from their own sainted USA, and of course that evidence is lacking because many social programs have never been tried in the US. Like to prove UHC works you have to prove it works in the US, but you can’t try it in the US because you have no proof that it works. Makes perfect sense, no? > [@](#): > > Still, you’re a helluva lot more entertaining than that colostomy bag, **curlcoat** , so you’ve got that going for you. Well, I must admit that I still find curly amusing, because she seems a little more demented than Rand, and she seems a little stupider. Arguing with either of them is like slamming your head against a brick wall, though. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1176 "2010-03-28T02:16:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > \Is this a “cite”? If so, you’ll see why I have such disregard for them? > > No, I don’t live in the northeast, but if you’ll cough up enough dough to make it worthwhile to bring you into my personal life - say, $20,000 or so - I’ll tell you where I live and take you out with me the next time I mow in temps over 100 degrees? (We can make it 110 if you like, but you’ll have a narrower and more immediate window of time to get here.) Sound like a deal? No thanks. Sorry if I misremembered something about your location. [This post’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12274715&postcount=94) description of a crime (“Here in the town I live in a homeless middle-aged woman was shot to death from twenty feet away by two cops for walking toward them with a knife and refusing to put it down.”) suggests [this crime](http://afgen.com/homeless_woman.html). Perhaps you live in Los Angeles instead? In that case, summer high temperatures [range](http://www.myforecast.com/bin/climate.m?city=11920&metric=false) in the 70s with a single record high of 110. Remember, you are the one who claimed to routinely mow lawns in 110 degree temperatures, not me. Moving the goal posts back to 100 doesn’t make your fairy tale any different. See, my point wasn’t to trap you in some lie. As I said before, “One hundred ten degrees is nowhere a common summer temperature. It’s a small point, but like your other maunderings, even your memories of temperature are not in accord with reality. You really need to give up the personal anecdote as citation business; it isn’t working for you.” Of course, my statement isn’t totally accurate either. You may in fact live in Death Valley, where temperatures actually do average well into three digits. But if so, I doubt there’s much lawn to be mowed. Or many neighbors in need of mowing help, either. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1177 "2010-03-28T03:01:38Z")
Let me refresh your memory. What I said was: > [@](#): > > And by the way, in the summertime I mow the lawns of my sister, my two neices and a sixty-seven year old single woman who lives across the street, all in one day and in as much as 110 degree heat. Notice I said “_in as much as_ 110 degree heat”. That is far from saying that I routinely mow in 110 degree heat. I don’t like to go into detail about where I live or what I do or anything else because because people like to latch onto it for purposes of stereotyping and dismissal when they lack anything of substance to argue with me on. You have seen what has happened since I revealed my age. I never got ‘cranky old man’ comments during the four or five years I posted here before I made the mistake of answering a question asking how old I was, and ever since that’s all I hear when someone gets ticked off over something I’ve said. Trust me. I’m not maundering and I know perfectly well what temps I mow in. Like I said, I’ll be happy to prove my claims - all it takes is a little dough. And besides, look at all the time you’ll save from having to play internet detective. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1178 "2010-03-28T04:41:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Notice I said “_in as much as_ 110 degree heat”. That is far from saying that I routinely mow in 110 degree heat. Are you under the impression that this will help us to be suitably impressed by your bad-ass mowing abilities? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1179 "2010-03-28T05:04:05Z")
No, I’m under the impression that fools like **Sleeps** who act post insults to the effect that I can barely get around are merely showing their ignorance and stupidity. And besides, everyone knows that 60 is the new 40. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/1180 "2010-03-28T05:42:36Z")
Who said you could barely get around? People just said you were old and behind the times (and also wrong). I think it’s hilarious that mowing the lawn is the most crazy, active thing you can think of to prove your youth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=60)