# Dancing on the grave of health care "reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487 "2010-02-03T04:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/161 "2010-02-05T04:00:39Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I know. I don’t want the government to pay for health insurance, so i’m an asshole. No,no, you misunderstand. Your nature is actually independent of your thoughts on health insurance. There are plenty of those who do not want a public option that present reasoned opinions and debate. I was mocking you. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/162 "2010-02-05T04:02:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I see you’re getting the message. Good. And this last thing you wrote…it makes no sense, of course. But it may be one of the least dopey things you’ve ever written here. I don’t care about your opinion. You’re a vile, lying bigot. > [@](#): > > Baby steps, but progress nonetheless. In the interests of fighting ignorance about the last thing I wrote: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/pGL2rytTraA/maxresdefault.jpg "Kelis - Milkshake (Official HD Video)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGL2rytTraA) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/163 "2010-02-05T04:08:55Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I want the government to take all of **Rand Rover** ’s money away and give it to undeserving poor people. I think a more fitting punishment would be for him to be permitted to pay only those taxes that support those elements of government he accepts as appropriate, but receive no benefit at all from any of the elements of government he despises. This is unfortunately not practically possible because society is too interwoven to isolate him out as required. Luckily for him. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/164 "2010-02-05T04:12:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t care about your opinion. You’re a vile, lying bigot. Oh, I forgot: “stupid”, “moron”, and then the old “bigot”. Are you going to make me get the newspaper out again and slap you on your nose, Chucklehead? In the meantime, Chucklehead, you might want to look the word “fallacy”, then look up “ad hominem” and learn how much weight they brings to a debate.:rolleyes: Sad. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/165 "2010-02-05T04:18:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, I forgot: “stupid”, “moron”, and then the old “bigot”. Are you going to make me get the newspaper out again and slap you on your nose, Chucklehead? You are free to have whatever fantasies you like. Even worthless shit-piles like you have rights. > [@](#): > > In the meantime, Chucklehead, you might want to look the word “fallacy”, then look up “ad hominem” and learn how much weight they brings to a debate.:rolleyes: I’m not attacking an argument you’re making. I’m telling you why your opinion of me doesn’t matter, to me. I don’t care what angry bigots think. Why should I? > [@](#): > > Sad. It really is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/166 "2010-02-05T04:21:18Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Much like Jack Chick, you have crossed the line into appearing to be a parody rather than someone with these actual opinions. [Poe’s Law!](http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe's_Law) It isn’t just for Fundies anymore! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/167 "2010-02-05T04:23:42Z")
**Lobo, Mags**. I think you guys should ignore each other. Listen, it works, I know. Me and Whats-his face agreed to ignore each other, and its a vast improvement! I don’t have to hear his whining jealousy of my eloquence and good looks, and Whats-his-face doesn’t have to endure crude references to his grotesquely mishappen genitals. Give it a shot! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/168 "2010-02-05T04:28:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Lobo, Mags**. I think you guys should ignore each other. Listen, it works, I know. Me and Whats-his face agreed to ignore each other, and its a vast improvement! I don’t have to hear his whining jealousy of my eloquence and good looks, and Whats-his-face doesn’t have to endure crude references to his grotesquely mishappen genitals. > > Give it a shot! I think you’ll have to admit that the grotesque deformities only add to their allure. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/169 "2010-02-05T04:37:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Lobo, Mags**. I think you guys should ignore each other. Listen, it works, I know. Trying to calm things down … in the fucking PIT? What the fuck’s gotten into you, pal? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/170 "2010-02-05T05:01:44Z")
[Zumante Lucero, 9 Year Old Boy, Dies After State Makes Error Processing Medicaid Case | HuffPost Denver](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/04/zumante-lucero-9-year-old_n_449851.html) Here is another grave for Rover to dance on. It is estimated 45,000 people die from lack of health care in America every year. But they are not big important people and their deaths are of little consequence when compared to Rovers bank account. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/171 "2010-02-05T14:19:20Z")
Why do people keep repeating the tired and obious untruth that I hate poor people? I opose the Dems’ version of HCR because I think that health care and health insurance should not be provided by the government, not because I think that poor people should not have or be given those things. Here’s another example. I would oppose a law that says “give Rand Rover, each member of his extended family, and each of his friends $1 million per year in exchange for nothing” because I don’t think the government should do that. Does that mean that I hate myself, my family, and my friends? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/172 "2010-02-05T14:43:20Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Why do people keep repeating the tired and obious untruth that I hate poor people? I opose the Dems’ version of HCR because I think that health care and health insurance should not be provided by the government, not because I think that poor people should not have or be given those things. Because people give you enough credit to understand what you’re saying. I’ll break it down, because I don’t think you’re smart enough to understand this on your own. There are people with _pre-existing conditions_ who simply cannot afford health insurance. They may want to purchase it, but it is priced (by the insurance companies) beyond any possibility of their affording it. Got it? The bill aims to get rid of _pre-existing conditions_ as a reason to price someone out of the market. Got it? In order to get rid of _pre-existing conditions_ you need to have a _mandate_. Just a fact. Got it? In order to have a _mandate_ you have to have subsidies for the poor to be able to afford insurance. This is also a fact. Got it? So you, by your ignorant, bullshit stance are advocating that people with pre-existing conditions and the poor simply can’t get health insurance. The system we have now simply has them priced right out of the market. Never mind the fact that you simply don’t understand the Senate Bill and are arguing against it based on your ignorant pre-conceived notions. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/173 "2010-02-05T15:19:08Z")
I will aslo break it down, because you have demonstrated that youy are not smart enough to understand on your own. First, there are several options for people with preexisting conditions. Some of those options may entail such persons paying more for health care than those without preexisting conditions. If such a person cannot afford the extra amount and cannot take advantage of an option that doesn’t involve paying the extra amount, then such person is simply in the position of “a person who wants to own something that they can’t afford to buy.” As a society, we have developed different responses for different types of people in that position. If a person making $300,000 a year wants but can’t afford a private jet, the societal response is to do nothing. If a person making $20,000 a year wants but cannot afford health care, then there are many charities that will help this person. And that is the proper way for society to deal witha person in such a position because charity involves voluntary exchanges. Government action involves violence (because it must be supported by money that is taken under threat of violence). Therefore, government action should be used solely for those things that absolutely won’t work without government action (ie, stopping other violence and roads, etc.). I don’t think that providing health insurance falls into any category where government action is proper. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/174 "2010-02-05T15:28:14Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > IFirst, there are several options for people with preexisting conditions. Some of those options may entail such persons paying more for health care than those without preexisting conditions. If such a person cannot afford the extra amount and cannot take advantage of an option that doesn’t involve paying the extra amount, then such person is simply in the position of “a person who wants to own something that they can’t afford to buy.” You’re whole argument in this post is that if you are poor and have a pre-existing condition, tough shit, look for a charity and hope you don’t die before they can host a spaghetti dinner for your benefit. This is why it appears as though you hate poor people, to put it hyperbolically. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/175 "2010-02-05T15:29:30Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And that is the proper way for society to deal witha person in such a position because charity involves voluntary exchanges. Government action involves violence (because it must be supported by money that is taken under threat of violence). Therefore, government action should be used solely for those things that absolutely won’t work without government action (ie, stopping other violence and roads, etc.). I don’t think that providing health insurance falls into any category where government action is proper. What violence? Nobody is going to punch you in the face if you don’t pay your taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/176 "2010-02-05T15:31:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I will aslo break it down, because you have demonstrated that youy are not smart enough to understand on your own. I’m your huckleberry. > [@](#): > > First, there are several options for people with preexisting conditions. Some of those options may entail such persons paying more for health care than those without preexisting conditions. If such a person cannot afford the extra amount and cannot take advantage of an option that doesn’t involve paying the extra amount, then such person is simply in the position of “a person who wants to own something that they can’t afford to buy.” You are a moron. The system is set up so that many people simply can’t afford it. You are suggesting that water should be $75 a gallon and that the poor should just go thirsty. You’re an un-American piece of rancid shit and honestly too stupid to argue this with. But I’ll try. 😃 > [@](#): > > As a society, we have developed different responses for different types of people in that position. If a person making $300,000 a year wants but can’t afford a private jet, the societal response is to do nothing. If a person making $20,000 a year wants but cannot afford health care, then there are many charities that will help this person. Move to Somalia. Everything you have is because of the US Government. If it weren’t making you safe and providing the infrastructure and economy you use to work, you’d be a dirt farmer watching his daughters get raped by the local warlord’s men. You’re just too stupid to understand that you’re sucking on the teat of the government as hard as any welfare mom. Never mind that our out of date insurance system is making us less productive as a society putting our businesses at a strong disadvantage. But you’d rather our businesses dry up than us help someone you think doesn’t deserve it. Also a jet isn’t health care. Even someone as blindly and stupidly ideological as yourself must be able to see a distinction. > [@](#): > > And that is the proper way for society to deal witha person in such a position because charity involves voluntary exchanges. Government action involves violence (because it must be supported by money that is taken under threat of violence). Therefore, government action should be used solely for those things that absolutely won’t work without government action (ie, stopping other violence and roads, etc.). I don’t think that providing health insurance falls into any category where government action is proper. Luckily, what you think is of very little import. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/177 "2010-02-05T15:33:13Z")
NOW you’re trying for reasoned debate. Perhaps better late than never, but the way you started this thread off was perhaps just inviting mocking, rather than debate, yes? Also, private jets cannot be equated to health care in terms of “nice things I’d like to buy if I have some extra money” One of these is a luxury, and the other is life or death. I mean, these two things are REALLY, REALLY different, so your comparison is laughable. Your proposal that health care for the poor (or indeed the middle class) should rely entirely on charity is an interesting one. Does this not infantalize the poor/middle class? Making them beg for their very lives does not seem like something I would like our society to do. Finally, do you think that it would be possible for charities to raise the billions of dollars per year needed to provide this healthcare? Especially as there are plenty of wealthy people who refuse to give to charity ( I recall you have stated are among these people). Wouldn’t the charities have to ration the healthcare they give because of limited resources? Do you think it’s a good idea to have the boards at a charity decide who gets treatment and who gets none? Maybe they’d have panels to decide who gets a scarce but needed treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/178 "2010-02-05T15:33:59Z")
Also, on your last paragraph, I’m arguing against everything Obama wants to do (instead of just the Senate bill more specifically) because the Senate bill is constantly changing and is really just a foot in the door for everything Obama has previously proposed and speechified about. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/179 "2010-02-05T15:36:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What violence? Nobody is going to punch you in the face if you don’t pay your taxes. I know. The amazing thing is that bumper sticker slogan was made to rile up stupid, uneducated people. And lo! Here we have RR using it. And using it seriously. Rand, bubbie, you’re being worked by people smarter than you. They’ve set you up with mindless platitudes that direct your thinking and serve their purposes. You’re a pawn. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487/180 "2010-02-05T15:38:55Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, on your last paragraph, I’m arguing against everything Obama wants to do (instead of just the Senate bill more specifically) because the Senate bill is constantly changing and is really just a foot in the door for everything Obama has previously proposed and speechified about. The Senate Bill has been the same for several months. The House is looking to get a suite of changes based on reconciliation added to that bill, but as far as anyone knows it will be largely similar except for funding. What exactly are you against in Obama’s proposal? I’ll bet you don’t even know. You’re enraged by phantoms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-on-the-grave-of-health-care-reform/527487.md?page=10)