# Dancing School For Pigs. OPEN 24/7. (local sustainability) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056 "2010-07-17T20:05:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/21 "2010-07-18T03:02:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well? You disagree? Some cites would be agreeable. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/22 "2010-07-18T03:06:27Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > You disagree? Some cites would be agreeable. Some cites from you (other than just a link to an 82 minute video) would be nice as well. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/23 "2010-07-18T03:14:43Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > It sounds like they made a movie of the book [Why Your World Is About To Get A Whole Lot Smaller by Jeff Rubin.](http://www.amazon.ca/Your-World-About-Whole-Smaller/dp/0307357511) Not a lot of propaganda; just a lot of good information about our cheap oil based global economy, how close we are to peak oil, and what happens after peak oil. And here’s a review. > [@](#): > > 5.0 out of 5 stars Now, this is what a wake up call looks like!, May 22 2009 > By Lotta Read Rocket Hood > This review is from: Why Your World Is About to Get a Whole Lot Smaller (Hardcover) > As a student of international political economy and a retired journalist who knows how diligently those who benefit from consumption driven economic growth have tried to prevent “peak oil” from going mainstream, I cannot imagine a better introduction for the masses. > > After a 20 year stint as chief economist for CIBC World Markets, Rubin is a figure in a position to know. The book is a searing indictment of the flat-earth stupidity that marks today’s disciples of popular economic theory. He exposes a painfully obvious oversight: Conventional economic “wisdom”, blinded by the dogmatic adherence to supply and demand thinking has overlooked one thing - MORE SUPPLY CAN’T COME ON LINE IN RESPONSE TO INCREASED DEMAND IF NATURE IS LIMITING THE SUPPLY. > > Theory falls when facts kick you in the teeth. We have been listening to economists when we should have been listening to petroleum geologists. > > With credit to Kunstler, Heinberg and other leaders who paved the way for him, Rubin is someone the suits will take seriously, if for no other reason than he was one of them. There is a lot of shame to go around among our academic, corporate and political leaders. Whether they are malicious, myopic or in denial, this book is going to make holding their noses high at cocktail parties a much sweatier and nerve-racking affair. > > In a tight, conversational style with substantial cheek, Rubin embarrasses a civilization with this book and begs them to explore rationality and begin preparing for a harsh dose of reality. The cheap energy binge party is over - we’d better get set for the hangover. > > Thanks Mr. Rubin Just more “drek”, eh, **tom**? ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/24 "2010-07-18T03:18:14Z")
Between this and the Third Jihad thread, I’ve been inspired. I’m thinking of a piece of media that will radically change your views on everything. You must all now go out and find it, read/listen to/watch it, and report back for discussion. I refuse to say what it is, what format it’s in, or why it will change how you see office chairs, Xenon, and the fulcrum, among other things. Surely you will all be brought around to my point of view, which I refuse to disclose for obvious reasons. Go! Time is short! ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/25 "2010-07-18T03:21:54Z")
I think the thing is, adhay, if the ugliest scenarios of Post-Peak Oil are actually going to come true, there isn’t really any use in trying to educate people now. By definition, it’s too late. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/26 "2010-07-18T03:30:40Z")
> [@3trew](#): > > Between this and the Third Jihad thread, I’ve been inspired. > > I’m thinking of a piece of media that will radically change your views on everything. You must all now go out and find it, read/listen to/watch it, and report back for discussion. I refuse to say what it is, what format it’s in, or why it will change how you see office chairs, Xenon, and the fulcrum, among other things. Surely you will all be brought around to my point of view, which I refuse to disclose for obvious reasons. > > Go! Time is short! Your newsletter. I would like to subscribe to it. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/27 "2010-07-18T03:40:36Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > I think the thing is, adhay, if the ugliest scenarios of Post-Peak Oil are actually going to come true, there isn’t really any use in trying to educate people now. By definition, it’s too late. True on any global or national scale. Still some time to regroup locally, however. > **[Xoilac 365 Trực tiếp bóng đá - Link xem Xoi Lac TV #1 full HD](https://xoilacvzl.cc/)** > > Kênh bóng đá trực tuyến Xoilac365.tv✅ nguồn link trực tiếp bóng đá Xoilac TV full HD. Phát sóng trực tuyến Xôi Lạc TV tructiepbongda chất lượng cao. Yes, pigs _can_ learn to dance. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/28 "2010-07-18T06:17:51Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > And here’s a review.Just more “drek”, eh, **tom**? It’s not that there isn’t a discussion to be had here (one that we’ve had more than once, I might add); it’s that you aren’t going about starting it very well. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/29 "2010-07-18T13:48:36Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > It’s not that there isn’t a discussion to be had here (one that we’ve had more than once, I might add); it’s that you aren’t going about starting it very well. Thanks for your Rubin cite. The problem of starting a rational discussion of the need for developing local sustainability is basically the difficulty of bringing people to the active awareness of the inevitability of an unrestrained rise in fuel prices. Once there, it is easy to foresee that local agriculture will be a necessity and needs to be addressed now. Taking time to watch an 82 min video on the extent of our cheap oil dependence and the effects that dwindling reserves are bound to have globally seems beyond the reach of many. How about this nice graphical presentation? > **[The Oil Drum | Oil Production is Reaching its Limit: The Basics of What This...](http://theoildrum.com/node/5969)** From the intro. > [@](#): > > We live in a finite world. It is clear that at some point, we will eventually start hitting limits—we won’t be able to extract as much oil, or we won’t be able to mine as much silver or platinum, or fresh-water aquifers that have built up over millions of years will run dry. > > We are reaching limits in several areas, but the one I would like to talk about here is oil production. Oil is essential, because **nearly all transportation depends on oil, and because a huge number of goods use oil in their manufacture (including textiles, pharmaceuticals, pesticides, asphalt, plastics, lubricating oils, and computers). Oil is also essential for our current agricultural system–growing food and transporting it to market.** [bolding mine] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/30 "2010-07-18T15:48:43Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Just more “drek”, eh, **tom**? The topic was one worth discussing. You chose to ignore the topic in order to have fun hurling insults. Your drek was posting in Great Debates in a manner that was deliberately insulting. If you are incapable of seeing the difference, just post in the Pit and stay out of Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/31 "2010-07-18T16:08:53Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > The problem of starting a rational discussion of the need for developing local sustainability is basically the difficulty of bringing people to the active awareness of the inevitability of an unrestrained rise in fuel prices. Once there, it is easy to foresee that local agriculture will be a necessity and needs to be addressed now. Which part of this are you wanting to do? Bring people to active awareness or address the issues of local agriculture? All snark aside, I’ve found that people don’t respond well to posts which look like a command to WATCH THIS NOW !!. Perhaps you’d be better off laying out your points of argument (or take them from the book/video) and see how that works out. Or, you could start a thread with the assumption that people already have the “active awareness” part done. “How do you see local agriculture efforts in your area panning out?” or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/32 "2010-07-18T16:34:12Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > I predict that after you see A Crude Awakening you will arrive at the following conclusions. > > 1. The entire global economy including our financial, manufacturing, agricultural and transport systems depend FOR THEIR VERY EXISTENCE on the continued availability of ‘cheap oil’. Imagine YN’s summer tourist season when gas is $10 at the pumps and local food prices have risen commensurately. Disaster. > > 2. The world is running out of ‘cheap oil’. Gas prices MUST rise, and indefinitely. > > 3. And here we are. I have watched the video and I disagree with your point 1). Those industries might be different without cheap oil, but they will still exist. As a result of the previous paragraph I don’t think your point 2) is a big deal even though it is probably true. I wholeheartedly agree with your point 3) but I was here before I even watched the video. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/33 "2010-07-18T17:15:22Z")
#2 has some disagreement even amongst Peak Oil people. Some say that the price can’t just climb indefinitely; that once it reaches a certain point, nobody will be able to afford it so it kind of stagnates there. It probably will be a big deal, but it’s too late to do much about it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/34 "2010-07-18T17:35:45Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > From the intro.[bolding mine] OK, everything is made from oil. Do you knw why that is? It is not because everything could not be made from anything else, and civilization will collapse without oil. It is because oil is cheap. When oil becomes expensive, we will make everything out of something else. Peak oil does not mean we run out of oil; peak oil means the price begins to rise, making other raw materials more economical. Yes , the world as we know it will cease to exist, but by then we will be living in the world that we do not yet know. You claim it will be worse; I think it will be better. My opinion is based on history; what is yours based on? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/35 "2010-07-18T17:44:57Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > You disagree? Some cites would be agreeable. I didn’t say I disagreed. I agree that we rely too much on fossil fuels, that we need to find alternatives, and that it’s going to bite us in the ass if we don’t start doing so soon. BUT, what I said, is that it is up to YOU to convince me that your ideas are correct. And not just by saying, “here’s a video, watch it! Then you’ll agree with me!” That’s just being lazy. “Dancing pigs” indeed. More like flying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/36 "2010-07-18T19:01:26Z")
I almost hate to ask, but… what the hell is “YN”? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/37 "2010-07-18T19:41:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I almost hate to ask, but… what the hell is “YN”? From the OP > [@](#): > > tourist dollars disappear from [your neighborhood (YN)'s economy ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/38 "2010-07-18T19:45:27Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > “Dancing pigs” indeed. More like flying. Notice they do not fly so much as plummet. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/39 "2010-07-18T22:34:47Z")
^^ Well, even a _rock_ will fly if you throw it hard enough. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/40 "2010-07-18T23:15:46Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Notice they do not fly so much as plummet. Not to mention the original phrase is “teach a pig to SING”, not dance. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056.md?page=3)