# Dancing School For Pigs. OPEN 24/7. (local sustainability) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056 "2010-07-17T20:05:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/41 "2010-07-18T23:18:45Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Not to mention the original phrase is “teach a pig to SING”, not dance. 😉 And here I thought it was “teach a pig to fish”. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/42 "2010-07-18T23:38:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > OK, everything is made from oil. Do you knw why that is? It is not because everything could not be made from anything else, and civilization will collapse without oil. It is because oil is cheap. When oil becomes expensive, we will make everything out of something else. Peak oil does not mean we run out of oil; peak oil means the price begins to rise, making other raw materials more economical. Yes, relative to very costly oil but everything is going to be more expensive while the economy shrinks. > [@](#): > > Yes , the world as we know it will cease to exist, but by then we will be living in the world that we do not yet know. You claim it will be worse; I think it will be better. My opinion is based on history; what is yours based on? Actually, I believe the world will be better for some people (better food, more active lifestyles), esp those who start working to toward local sustainability now. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/43 "2010-07-19T00:32:41Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Yes, relative to very costly oil but everything is going to be more expensive while the economy shrinks.Actually, I believe the world will be better for some people (better food, more active lifestyles), esp those who start working to toward local sustainability now. No significant portion of the economy will be devoted towards local sustainability until energy from wind, solar, etc. is cheaper than energy from oil. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/44 "2010-07-19T00:36:58Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Yes, relative to very costly oil but everything is going to be more expensive while the economy shrinks. Since locally sustainable energy is currently more expensive than oil, changing now will cause the economy to shrink sooner rather than later. Oil wins again. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/45 "2010-07-19T01:18:31Z")
It is highly unlikely that **adhay** and/or the producer of the video (which I’m not going to squander more fossil fuel energy watching) are going to gain converts by referring to the target audience as pigs, stupid, malicious, myopic or in denial. As a tangible step towards ridding himself of dependence on vanishing energy sources and gaining local sustainability, I suggest that **adhay** make arrangements to send me all those foolish consumer items that he will shortly be unable to use anyway because of the post-peak oil apocalypse. It will help free him from dependence on “things”, and the glut of personal items will sicken me and hasten the day when I join **adhay** ’s neighborhood of locally sustainability. E-mail me - while there is still time. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/46 "2010-07-19T11:37:46Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > … > > How about this nice graphical presentation? > > [The Oil Drum | Oil Production is Reaching its Limit: The Basics of What This Means](http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5969#more) > [@](#): > > We live in a finite world. It is clear that at some point, we will eventually start hitting limits—we won’t be able to extract as much oil, or we won’t be able to mine as much silver or platinum, or fresh-water aquifers that have built up over millions of years will run dry. > > We are reaching limits in several areas, but the one I would like to talk about here is oil production. Oil is essential, because **nearly all transportation depends on oil, and because a huge number of goods use oil in their manufacture (including textiles, pharmaceuticals, pesticides, asphalt, plastics, lubricating oils, and computers). Oil is also essential for our current agricultural system–growing food and transporting it to market.** [bolding mine] The author presents a series of graphs of many oil variables (discovery, production, price, etc) against economic factors (credit, GDP, etc) over time and reaches the following conclusion. > [@](#): > > My personal view is that the main task we should be focusing on now is how to move to a much simpler system—one that depends mostly on locally grown food and locally manufactured goods. This will likely mean a much lower standard of living. Limiting population should probably be a goal, because it will be easier to have enough for all if there are fewer mouths to feed. > > I do not see climate change legislation as terribly helpful. Cap and trade will add huge overhead to the system—something we really cannot afford right now. Peak oil is likely to mean a continuing major recession, and a natural decline in fossil fuel use. To me, we would be better off spending our resources developing local agriculture and local manufacturing, and perhaps even sailing ships. This is the best presentation of the problem I have ever seen. I have downloaded it and plan to turn it into a slide show. It’s a natural pair with A Crude Awakening. The download includes the comments on the article which contain a wealth of insight and personal expertise. Worth price of admission in itself. If it’s too much trouble for you to spend some time with something so easily obtainable and so informative on the major single issue facing you and the world today, you might want to stop in at my Pig Singing School. BTW, it’s a joke. > **[Comedy Central The Daily Show Fan Page](https://www.cc.com/fan-hub/the-daily-show)** > > The source for The Daily Show fans, with episodes hosted by Jon Stewart, Ronny Chieng, Jordan Klepper, Dulcé Sloan and more, plus interviews, highlights and The Weekly Show podcast. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/47 "2010-07-19T12:05:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And here I thought it was “teach a pig to fish”. The adage is “Build a pig a fire and he’ll be warm for a day. Set a pig on fire and you’ll have barbeque all week.” ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/48 "2010-07-19T16:09:33Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Notice they do not fly so much as plummet. God as my witness, I thought pigs could fly. ---
**Author:** ![Tully\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Tully\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tully_Mars)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/49 "2010-07-19T16:22:17Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And here I thought it was “teach a pig to fish”. You could, but they would just sit around in a boat and drink beer all day. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/50 "2010-07-20T04:59:56Z")
> [@Tully\_Mars](#): > > You could, but they would just sit around in a boat and drink beer all day. …and then go _wee wee_ all the way home. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/51 "2010-07-20T11:58:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And here I thought it was “teach a pig to fish”. “Teach a pig to fish and he’ll eat for a day, Teach a pig to fish and he’ll sit on the boat and pout because you didn’t bring him another fish.” ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/52 "2010-07-20T13:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Conventional economic “wisdom”, blinded by the dogmatic adherence to supply and demand thinking has overlooked one thing - MORE SUPPLY CAN’T COME ON LINE IN RESPONSE TO INCREASED DEMAND IF NATURE IS LIMITING THE SUPPLY. The ignorance and stupidity of the argument is here distilled into one sentence. How very efficient of the reviewer. One resource becomes scarce and expensive; people start using others instead. This is what has been happening since the Stone Age (which did not end because the world ran out of stone). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/53 "2010-07-20T13:44:15Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > #2 has some disagreement even amongst Peak Oil people. Some say that the price can’t just climb indefinitely; that once it reaches a certain point, nobody will be able to afford it so it kind of stagnates there. Actually, what happens is that alcohol or biodiesel or liquefied coal or something becomes competitive and takes over the market niche. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/54 "2010-07-20T13:45:50Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Actually, I believe the world will be better for some people (better food, more active lifestyles), esp those who start working to toward local sustainability now. Hardly. Local sustainability (ake “juche”) doesn’t seem to have made anybody’s life better (I’m not counting the rulers, who can exempt themselves whenever they like). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/55 "2010-07-20T13:48:54Z")
> [@](#): > > To me, we would be better off spending our resources developing local agriculture and local manufacturing, and perhaps even sailing ships. Why on earth would anybody want to develop sailing ships when we already have perfectly good ships that perform much better without using fossil fuels? Come, now, don’t be afraid of the “N” word… ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/56 "2010-07-20T14:07:03Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Actually, what happens is that alcohol or biodiesel or liquefied coal or something becomes competitive and takes over the market niche. That doesn’t change the price of the old stuff though. And, you’re supposing that there is enough volume of alcohol or biodiesel to take the place of the petroleum being currently used. My personal opinion is that there is going to be a catching-up period where a lot of time and effort is spent casting about for cheap energy sources to take the place of petroleum. It’s just human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/57 "2010-07-20T17:19:10Z")
Not to mention how many of those alternative fuels involve petroleum at some point in their production. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/58 "2010-07-20T21:50:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Rather than give you a Warning, I will be kind enough to move this to the **BBQ Pit** which is where you evidently thought you were posting. > > (Any thread that begins by asserting that some large number of its readers need to be compared to pigs belongs in the **Pit** , regardless what silly argument you come up with to rationalize putting it in Great Debates.) Let me quote from the 1st paragraph in the OP > [@](#): > > I said that teaching (here to Dopers but anywhere, The Dope has no corner on pigness, need I remake my point) that our global collapse as a species, now afloat on unsustainable debt and 'cheap oil, is _inevitable and immanent_, is much like teaching pigs to dance. Nonetheless, Pigs, stand up and grab some sky. Now, **tom** , if that’s more than a playful metaphor (pittable) to you, I suggest you take a break. > [@](#): > > [/Moderating] > ETA: the next time you post this sort of drek in **Great Debates** , you will receive a Warning for trolling. Nice ETA, **tom**. Once again, you got to spew your drek as a poster under mod colors. Welcome to Pit. So let me ask you, what would YOU be looking at if gas at the pumps went to $6/gal, forever. It’s worse than that but let’s just talk about $6/gal. What’s your best guess? Also, thanks for your ever evenhanded moderating, no sarcasm. After all, I only came here to “fight” my own ignorance. Overcoming or dispelling ignorance is not “fight”. It’s a matter of looking the facts and making intelligent decisions based on your assessment of them. All I’m bringing to the table is some information. And thanks to all those here who fueled this past year of research. Bunch of trolls. 🙂 (smiley for **tom** ’ sake). ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/59 "2010-07-23T12:09:38Z")
Ahem, **tom** , I’m waiting. How about a comment on my post? And while you’re at it, consider moving the thread back to GD. Do you not see some parallels in your moderating of my infamous Lenin Was The Tits thread and my Dancing School For Pigs? Late in the game, you jump in with your mod-fu, declare the debate resolved against the OP then in one case close it (reopened when I took it to ATMB) and in this case, moved it to the Pit, as moderator and then threaten me with warning as a poster. This is the Pit so, wtf? Your modding in Lenin taught me one thing, make clear your point in the OP if you use would playful metaphors in your thread title. There are those posters and at least one mod with neither a sense of humor nor a real interest in looking at some issues. These are the folks, who will basically ignore the OP, seize on a word or phrase in it and start their thread shitting. So, **tom**? ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/60 "2010-07-23T12:56:25Z")
I disagree. [Cite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAepgZ5iM5k) [Cite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynvpn-H1DMA) [Cite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io63z-aRMbg) [Citey](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLSoYihTtro&feature=related) [Cite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaRXbnKvwSo&feature=related) [Cite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FxV9LZvMa0&feature=related) [Ciite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtIKJsslyVs&feature=related) [Ciiite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX5fiFk8AxY&feature=related) [CIIIIIITE!!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7rlYuLjcFE&feature=related) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056.md?page=4)