# Dancing School For Pigs. OPEN 24/7. (local sustainability) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056 "2010-07-17T20:05:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/81 "2010-08-04T23:57:04Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > Actually, I called him out as an ETA poster and asked him to speculate on what his life would look like on $6 gas. > > Not that different from the way it is now, in my opinion. A portion of the population would switch to bikes, and in some cities public transportation would raise their rates. There might be some revolutions in truck and shipment technology. I would not be among the set of people who would change my behavior, mind you. I can afford to pay twice as much for gas. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/82 "2010-08-05T01:35:28Z")
The instant “local sustainability” and such is bandied about as an answer, you can be sure the speaker’s an ignoramous. Locavorism is stupid; it’s one of the dumbest ideas in recent history. The economic and environmental benefits of economic specialization, appropriate economies of scale, and climate-appropriate agriculture dwarf the transportation costs by a margin of a thousand to one. Transportation costs are a small part of the cost of most things; attempting to reorganize production would be orders or magnitude costlier. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/83 "2010-08-05T10:57:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The instant “local sustainability” and such is bandied about as an answer, you can be sure the speaker’s an ignoramous. Ignoramus? Time will tell to whom that word should be applied. Again, I ask you to look at this, [The Oil Drum | Oil Production is Reaching its Limit: The Basics of What This Means](http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5969#more) and draw your own conclusions. > [@](#): > > Locavorism is stupid; it’s one of the dumbest ideas in recent history. I couldn’t agree more. [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/magazine/12wwln-safire-t.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/magazine/12wwln-safire-t.html) . Much ado about nothing. > [@](#): > > The economic and environmental benefits of economic specialization, appropriate economies of scale, and climate-appropriate agriculture dwarf the transportation costs by a margin of a thousand to one. Transportation costs are a small part of the cost of most things; Sure they are. Until you factor in the cost of driving 60 mi to work and back everyday, 15 mi to Walmart, and 200 mi for a weekend away. And, aside from transporting it to market, the increased cost of food which has been described as converting oil into food (fuel for traction, pesticides and fertilizer). > [@](#): > > attempting to reorganize production would be orders or magnitude costlier. Yes, on a national scale it’s impossible for technological and political/economic reasons. OTOH, If they start now, an agricultural bio-region, dependent on tourist dollars and cheap imported food, could shift comfortably to a post cheap oil economy. Small bio-diesel/ethanol plants to fuel a few tractors for the heavy lifting and a number of alcohol powered vehicles for local transportation and transport. Alcohol powered mopeds and bicycles with trailers for running around. Lots of greenhouses for those winter months. ---
**Author:** ![ToborAton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/57b2e6/32.png) [@ToborAton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToborAton)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/84 "2010-08-05T17:07:00Z")
If I had a nickel for every year that somebody thought would be the last then I would be making a nickel a year! (sorry for the awkward joke but I’m just in a weird mood) I don’t think you can find a youtube video of it but the site “withouthotair” and the book are both very _very_ good things to read if you want to see some exceptionally _clear_ thinking about where England’s energy is going to be coming from. “Sustainable Energy – without the hot air” (free html, free pdf, $50 dead tree) [http://withouthotair.com/](http://withouthotair.com/) The author is Cambridge physicist Dr. David MacKay: > **[David J. C. MacKay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_MacKay_%28scientist%29)** > > Sir David John Cameron MacKay FRS FInstP FICE (22 April 1967 – 14 April 2016) was a British physicist, mathematician, and academic. He was the Regius Professor of Engineering in the Department of Engineering at the University of Cambridge and from 2009 to 2014 was Chief Scientific Advisor to the UK Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC). MacKay wrote the book Sustainable Energy – Without the Hot Air. > MacKay was educated at Newcastle High School and represented Britain in the Internati... ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/85 "2010-08-05T20:37:17Z")
> [@ToborAton](#): > > If I had a nickel for every year that somebody thought would be the last then I would be making a nickel a year! (sorry for the awkward joke but I’m just in a weird mood) Don’t worry about it. > [@](#): > > I don’t think you can find a youtube video of it but the site “withouthotair” and the book are both very _very_ good things to read if you want to see some exceptionally _clear_ thinking about where England’s energy is going to be coming from. > > “Sustainable Energy – without the hot air” > (free html, free pdf, $50 dead tree) > [http://withouthotair.com/](http://withouthotair.com/) > > The author is Cambridge physicist Dr. David MacKay: > [David J. C. MacKay - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_MacKay_%28scientist%29) Our situation today is unprecedented. For the past 150 years, oil has been cheap. Easily found, easily extracted and priced to sell. A gas war in the US back in the '50s meant dropping your gas price from 30c to 20c/gal. And, adjusted for inflation, gas prices here don’t differ much today. Given the inevitable end of cheap oil and the endless rise in fuel prices to come, England and the rest of Europe will face different problems than does the US. Your cities were founded before oil appeared on the scene with public trade right-of-ways connecting them thru well developed agriculture. Over the past 60 years, as net oil importer, you have been forced to conserve oil and have come to rely on a small and well developed regional public transportation system. MacKay speaks about fine tuning that established system. In the US, we’re up a whole other creek. No need to count the ways. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/86 "2010-08-05T20:56:51Z")
I shouldn’t look at this thread. It makes me feel like going out and buying a Hummer. ---
**Author:** ![ToborAton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/57b2e6/32.png) [@ToborAton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToborAton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/87 "2010-08-06T01:53:44Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > … our global collapse as a species, now afloat on unsustainable debt and 'cheap oil, is inevitable and immanent … > [@adhay](#): > > MacKay speaks about fine tuning that established system. [http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/book/SUMMARY](http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/book/SUMMARY) [QUOTE=MacKay’s Summary] And this is perhaps the most important message: the scale of action required to put in place a sustainable energy solution. Even if we imagine strong efficiency measures and smart technology-switches that halved our energy consumption [from 125 kWh per day per person to 60 kWh per day] (which would be lower than the per-capita consumption of any developed country today), we should not kid ourselves about the challenge of **supplying 60 kWh per day without fossil fuels**. Among the low-carbon energy supply options, the three with the biggest potential are wind power, nuclear power, and concentrating solar power in other peoples’ deserts. And here is the scale that is required if (for simplicity) we wanted to get one third from each of these sources: we would have to build wind farms with an area equal to the area of Wales; we would have to build 50 Sizewells of nuclear power; and we would need solar power stations in deserts covering an area twice the size of Greater London. [/QUOTE] If by _fine tuning_ you actually happen to mean something like trying to find a way to eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels while also meeting something like our current energy requirements then I guess you did understand him and you will now stop talking as if we are going to run out of affordable energy. Otherwise, if you have just dismissed MacKay with a single sentence then I have no reason to try and spoon feed rational thought to you; I was just in a strange mood and thought I would point out a related and freely available corpus of really clear thinking that might catch your eye. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/88 "2010-08-06T11:26:51Z")
> [@](#): > > If by _fine tuning_ you actually happen to mean something like trying to find a way to eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels while also meeting something like our current energy requirements then I guess you did understand him and you will now stop talking as if we are going to run out of affordable energy. Perhaps you will explain this to me. My thesis is based on the assumption that within 2-20 years, oil prices will start rising and keep on going. It also takes note of the fact that the entire global fabric is dependent for it’s existence on an ever growing supply of cheap oil. The world as we know it with it’s billions of people dependent on tourists and imported food is just not sustainable. The first world will be especially hard hit. Those who avoid the Mad Max scenario will be those living where their food and fuel are grown. There are those who believe that by the time we absolutely need them, alternatives to oil will be available and we will carry on. We don’t have the time given that seriously funded development of alternatives won’t really get under way until rising oil prices have made it profitable. ---
**Author:** ![panman\_1960](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@panman\_1960](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panman_1960)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/89 "2010-08-06T11:56:18Z")
OK, I watched what I could stay awake for. 1. Yup. It’s a finite resource. We’re using it up. So what are you doing about it? How’s your personal environmental footprint going? 2. Yup, most everything is based on oil. Yup price will go up. I thought one point in the film was interestin. Loosely interpreted ’ We invented autombiles when we found oil, not because we ran out of hay for the horses.’ The film further went on to point out that mankind still seems to find ways around problems associated with shortages. They also pointed to a couple of different paths we could take. Wage war on the world to steal our oil, (ie, US, China, Russia) or we can find alternate sources to deal with it. 3. Here we are? Teaching pigs to dance, fly, sing? I don’t understant the alarmist vitrol you seem to be putting forth. The info in the film, to me, seemed like, “Duh! thought most people understood this.” Glad it woke you up, now is your chance to make a change. Maybe you could spearhead a movement for global cleanup from all the crap those oil companies left in the feilds when the oil was gone. That is something to get worked up over. Me, I’m too busy commuting to work in my H2, investing in oil futures on my cell phone to be bothered with it at the moment. (OK the last was a joke). Really I’m too busy helping my family, parents and kids, and grandkids stay afloat, commuting on my motorcycle over 100 miles one way to keep a job, in these tough times. Maybe after I’m out of work in December, I’ll have time to lend a hand. Hope there are some free lunches in store! later, Tom. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/90 "2010-08-06T13:29:38Z")
Carry on, bro. ---
**Author:** ![splankt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@splankt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/splankt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/91 "2010-08-08T05:47:02Z")
I don’t have 82 minutes to spend on this, I have to spend my precious hours watching internet videos about how Muslims are taking over the west! ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/92 "2010-08-08T22:02:47Z")
Life, Liberty and Time to call my own. It’s the American Way. Open wide. While the popcorn’s poppin’, take a look at that Oil Drum article cited above. Download it and study it seriously. Get used to the fact that 20 years from now there will be no gas at the pumps. What you gonna do now, bad boy? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/93 "2010-08-08T23:28:55Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Download it and study it seriously. Get used to the fact that 20 years from now there will be no gas at the pumps. What you gonna do now, bad boy? Use a different type of vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/94 "2010-08-08T23:44:18Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > Download it and study it seriously. Get used to the fact that 20 years from now there will be no gas at the pumps. What you gonna do now, bad boy? > > Use a different type of vehicle. Got a local fuel production and delivery infrastructure in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/95 "2010-08-08T23:50:39Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@pedescribe](#): > > > > Use a different type of vehicle. > > Got a local fuel production and delivery infrastructure in mind? Yes. It’s called my body. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/96 "2010-08-09T00:01:45Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > Got a local fuel production and delivery infrastructure in mind? > > Yes. It’s called my body. We must all contribute what we have to the good of all. In addition to hands and feet we have a common mind. Call me socialist, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/97 "2010-08-09T00:02:34Z")
How has this dickhead not been banned for spamming? Upthread he was soliciting people for their home address so he could send them crap in the mail. Surely that’s against the rules, no? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/98 "2010-08-09T00:06:24Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > How has this dickhead not been banned for spamming? Upthread he was soliciting people for their home address so he could send them crap in the mail. Surely that’s against the rules, no? Excellent rigamrole, **Rigamarole**. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/99 "2010-08-09T00:29:08Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@pedescribe](#): > > > > Yes. It’s called my body. > > We must all contribute what we have to the good of all. In addition to hands and feet we have a common mind. > > Call me socialist, if you will. Duh. It’s been painfully obvious that this whole oil issue is just an excuse for you to propose your utopia. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056/100 "2010-08-09T00:48:15Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > We must all contribute what we have to the good of all. In addition to hands and feet we have a common mind. > > > > Call me socialist, if you will. > > Duh. It’s been painfully obvious that this whole oil issue is just an excuse for you to propose your utopia. Busted. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dancing-school-for-pigs-open-24-7-local-sustainability/547056.md?page=6)