# Dangerously unacceptable materials were used in our "fix and flip" house - any recourse? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 30, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652 "2014-05-30T17:40:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/21 "2014-05-31T17:53:10Z")
> [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](#): > > Um, the A/C unit was not getting any power from the circuit breaker. When the line was replaced by a licensed electrician whom I trust, the A/C unit started working again. If the line wasn’t “burnt”, what do you think the problem was? > > The plumbing line was leaking; again, because they used a line that was too small for the water pressure. > > In both cases, we had more than one professional look at the issue, and the same conclusion was separately reached by both professionals. None of these issues are “my” assessments. By all means, talk to a lawyer if you think it’s worth it. I’m not familiar with Colorado, but CA, where I live, the seller is required to disclose any known issues with the home-- doing a a bathroom remodel which includes plumbing changes without a permit would be one such issue. Not sure if you need a permit to add A/C to your house. ---
**Author:** ![Inferior\_Desecrator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9f8e36/32.png) [@Inferior\_Desecrator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inferior_Desecrator)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/22 "2014-05-31T19:42:57Z")
> [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](#): > > Um, the A/C unit was not getting any power from the circuit breaker. When the line was replaced by a licensed electrician whom I trust, the A/C unit started working again. If the line wasn’t “burnt”, what do you think the problem was? > > The plumbing line was leaking; again, because they used a line that was too small for the water pressure. > > In both cases, we had more than one professional look at the issue, and the same conclusion was separately reached by both professionals. None of these issues are “my” assessments. I have no idea what the problem was, I was not there to troubleshoot the issue. But if the electrician “whom you trust” is saying the unit needs 30A wire then your trust may be misplaced (or the information you provide is incorrect or incomplete). Anyway, I just checked back in case you had a question. Good luck with your lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/23 "2014-05-31T19:56:27Z")
> [@Inferior\_Desecrator](#): > > I have no idea what the problem was, I was not there to troubleshoot the issue. But if the electrician “whom you trust” is saying the unit needs 30A wire then your trust may be misplaced (or the information you provide is incorrect or incomplete). > > Anyway, I just checked back in case you had a question. Good luck with your lawsuit. Like **Amateur Barbarian** , I’d like to know what you are basing your wiring knowledge on. Wire must be sized for load, as must any overcurrent protective device, i.e. the circuit breaker. Local codes will supersede national codes, but only to the extent that they exceed them. I speak as a trained electrician with 30 years experience. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/24 "2014-05-31T20:06:40Z")
> [@Inferior\_Desecrator](#): > > I have no idea what the problem was, I was not there to troubleshoot the issue. But if the electrician “whom you trust” is saying the unit needs 30A wire then your trust may be misplaced (or the information you provide is incorrect or incomplete). If you have a 30A AC unit on one end and a 30A breaker on the other, you can’t have 20A wiring in between. If it were a 20A unit, the 20A wiring would need to be safely backed with a 20A breaker. I can’t begin to imagine what else you might be suggesting here. ---
**Author:** ![cococ173](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ab097/32.png) [@cococ173](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cococ173)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/25 "2014-05-31T20:22:47Z")
I want to mention that you also should ‘see’ what part the seller’s realtor played. S/he may be liable also. Here, in Los Angeles, it seems realtors tell you if an addition/rennovation is not to code, i.e. no permits. Then it is the buyer’s choice whether to continue with the purchase or not. As far as I know ‘as is’ is on every contract and is superceded by legal issues all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/26 "2014-05-31T20:32:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Your total repair costs are \< $1,000. Hard to imagine you’d be able to hire a lawyer to represent you for less than that. > [@Enginerd](#): > > Total so far, at any rate. What are the odds that they’ve already found the only two sub-standard repairs? Kind of hard to sue for defects you haven’t discovered yet. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/27 "2014-05-31T23:32:35Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Kind of hard to sue for defects you haven’t discovered yet. Not what I was suggesting. Just saying that I’d be reluctant to say anything like “well, it was less than $1000 total, so I’ll just eat it” for a while yet. But in light of the relatively low damages, would small claims court be an option? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/28 "2014-06-01T01:11:43Z")
> [@Inferior\_Desecrator](#): > > To be honest, I see no evidence of sub-standard work in the OP. > > The 30A AC unit does indeed require a 30A breaker but the wire will be 20A. This actually shows a sound knowledge of the electrical code as opposed to the advice you recieved that 30A wire is needed. If the wire actually “burnt”, I can pretty much assure you it was not the fault of the wire size. > > Many times an AC unit will quit working on the “hottest day of the year” by freeze-up, but without much more information, the info in the OP is far from conclusive. > > As to the “cheap plastic hose”, that is what is usually used to make the final connections to appliances (faucets, toilets, etc). Without a picture and/or more thorough details, your assessment is speculation, at best. > > I can sympathize but it would be prudent to get a solid second opinion from non-conflicted tradespeople, rather than a serviceman justifying his bill, before I pursued legal action. > > Yes, it could just be 2 issues. I built my own house, and I had 2 issues that had to be resolved in 10 years, and they manifested themselves in the first week. Inconvenient, yes, but hardly an intent to defraud (myself in this case). > > As to the permit issues, different scenario from my response. The lawyer closing the deal should have addressed that. If you closed without a lawyer…well. > [@Chefguy](#): > > Like **Amateur Barbarian** , I’d like to know what you are basing your wiring knowledge on. Wire must be sized for load, as must any overcurrent protective device, i.e. the circuit breaker. Local codes will supersede national codes, but only to the extent that they exceed them. I speak as a trained electrician with 30 years experience. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > If you have a 30A AC unit on one end and a 30A breaker on the other, you can’t have 20A wiring in between. > > If it were a 20A unit, the 20A wiring would need to be safely backed with a 20A breaker. > > I can’t begin to imagine what else you might be suggesting here. But you gotta admit… great post/username combo! ---
**Author:** ![Inferior\_Desecrator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9f8e36/32.png) [@Inferior\_Desecrator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inferior_Desecrator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/29 "2014-06-01T01:47:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But you gotta admit… great post/username combo! Touche’. I’ve just found the name humorous. Never thought much else about it. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > If you have a 30A AC unit on one end and a 30A breaker on the other, you can’t have 20A wiring in between. > > If it were a 20A unit, the 20A wiring would need to be safely backed with a 20A breaker. > > I can’t begin to imagine what else you might be suggesting here. AC is a dedicated circuit to a motor load. The wire is sized at 125% of FLA and the breaker is 175% of FLA, thus larger. It’s a bit more complicated than that but the point is the same. Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/30 "2014-06-01T02:03:25Z")
I’m confused as hell. You first said a 30A load requires a 30A breaker. Now you say a 30A load requires a breaker rated at 175% of the load. Where I went to school 30 is not also 175% of 30. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/31 "2014-06-01T06:22:24Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Not what I was suggesting. Just saying that I’d be reluctant to say anything like “well, it was less than $1000 total, so I’ll just eat it” for a while yet. > > But in light of the relatively low damages, would small claims court be an option? I doubt it. Just because you win in small claims doesnt mean the person has to pay. It isnt like it is on tv. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/32 "2014-06-01T12:08:13Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I doubt it. Just because you win in small claims doesnt mean the person has to pay. It isnt like it is on tv. Of course they have to pay. It doesn’t mean that they WILL pay. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/33 "2014-06-01T14:46:18Z")
> [@Inferior\_Desecrator](#): > > TAC is a dedicated circuit to a motor load. The wire is sized at 125% of FLA and the breaker is 175% of FLA, thus larger. It’s a bit more complicated than that but the point is the same. Waiting on the NEC cite, here. Since you’re such an expert, it should be right at hand, right? I mean, I’ve only been doing remodeling and extension construction for about 35 years, so I’ve never reached a level where I needed to memorize it. ---
**Author:** ![Inferior\_Desecrator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9f8e36/32.png) [@Inferior\_Desecrator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inferior_Desecrator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/34 "2014-06-01T20:58:26Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Waiting on the NEC cite, here. Since you’re such an expert, it should be right at hand, right? Fair. But I’ll let someone else do the typing. There are many explanations but this one is pretty clear and lists all the relative code rules and tables. I don’t know about “expert” but it is what I do for a living. I work with the CEC normally (at hand) but I’ve had to cross over to the NEC (at the office) many times and the methodology is virtually the same for motor circuits. Other sections, not so much :). [http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/overcurrent-protection-motor-installations-part-one](http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/overcurrent-protection-motor-installations-part-one) What we don’t have is the full lload amps (FLA), or full load current (FLC) if you prefer, for this actual application so consider the methodology. 125% of FLA for wire and 175% of FLA for breaker (or fuse) means they will not be 30A breaker/30A wire/30A unit. If the 30A breaker is correct, than the unit is much smaller than 30A. If the unit is actually 30A then the breaker would be much bigger. > [@](#): > > I mean, I’ve only been doing remodeling and extension construction for about 35 years, so I’ve never reached a level where I needed to memorize it. Motor circuits don’t come up in residential much but are a matter of course in commercial and industrial applications. And there is nothing wrong with using the larger wire but it would be cost prohibitive in larger scale. The OP wanted to gain recourse, and I suggested he check his facts before an erroneous (and possibly litigous?) claim was made. In the stated case, 20A wire is not necessarily wrong. For an example, my own AC unit is 15.7 FLA, 19.675 motor circuit amps (#12 AWG-20A wire) and a 27.475 breaker (nearest 30A). The two similar sized units I looked at from Trane are the same. Just trying to help out, and I should know better. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![turtlescanfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/35 "2014-06-02T00:40:55Z")
> [@Inferior\_Desecrator](#): > > Fair. But I’ll let someone else do the typing. There are many explanations but this one is pretty clear and lists all the relative code rules and tables. I don’t know about “expert” but it is what I do for a living. I work with the CEC normally (at hand) but I’ve had to cross over to the NEC (at the office) many times and the methodology is virtually the same for motor circuits. Other sections, not so much :). > > [http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/overcurrent-protection-motor-installations-part-one](http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/overcurrent-protection-motor-installations-part-one) > > What we don’t have is the full lload amps (FLA), or full load current (FLC) if you prefer, for this actual application so consider the methodology. 125% of FLA for wire and 175% of FLA for breaker (or fuse) means they will not be 30A breaker/30A wire/30A unit. If the 30A breaker is correct, than the unit is much smaller than 30A. If the unit is actually 30A then the breaker would be much bigger. > > Motor circuits don’t come up in residential much but are a matter of course in commercial and industrial applications. And there is nothing wrong with using the larger wire but it would be cost prohibitive in larger scale. > > The OP wanted to gain recourse, and I suggested he check his facts before an erroneous (and possibly litigous?) claim was made. In the stated case, 20A wire is not necessarily wrong. For an example, my own AC unit is 15.7 FLA, 19.675 motor circuit amps (#12 AWG-20A wire) and a 27.475 breaker (nearest 30A). The two similar sized units I looked at from Trane are the same. > > **Just trying to help out, and I should know better. I’m done.** Once again, unnecessary snark has scared someone off:(. Don’t know if **Inferior Desecrator** will be back, but I’m still following this thread to see **Chefguy** and **Amateur Barbarian** ’s responses to this cite (that seems to support what he was saying) will be responded to with an appropriate amount of respect. I don’t know who’s right, but **ID** seems to me to be making the best case so far. BTW, I am also a contractor, but I sub out my electrical work so I won’t pretend to be an expert. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652/36 "2014-06-02T01:20:41Z")
One more question. What the hell is 20 amp wire? Wire is sold by gauge. The size wire needed for a given load varies with the length of the run. A 70 foot run will require a smaller gauge (larger diameter) wire than a 10 foot run at any given load. I am no expert in AC wiring but even I can tell that ID seems to be pulling shit right out of his ass. And still 30A is not 175% of 30A. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dangerously-unacceptable-materials-were-used-in-our-fix-and-flip-house-any-recourse/689652.md?page=1)