# Daniel Ellsberg was a hero. How is Julian Assange not a hero? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282 "2010-11-29T14:31:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/1 "2010-11-29T14:31:30Z")
Really, what of importance distinguishes this Wikileaks business from the Pentagon Papers case? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/2 "2010-11-29T14:38:20Z")
Assuming facts not in evidence. Ellsberg was not a hero. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/3 "2010-11-29T14:42:51Z")
But I will remind myself to remember this discussion when I start thinking that my esteemed opposition here might be driven by partisan goals. This disclosure at this time hurts Obama’s administration more than anything else, and you are (apparently) in favor of it. This is good evidence that your position is a principled one. Equally, I oppose it, and I KNOW my position is a principled one. While generically there is value in "transparency"in government, it does not mean that all communications between government officials should be public. Our diplomatic officials should have a way to make unvarnished and potentially insulting evaluations of their subjects without worry that their evaluation will come to light – at least, that it not come to light before everyone involved is too old or too dead to care. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/4 "2010-11-29T14:52:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Really, what of importance distinguishes this Wikileaks business from the Pentagon Papers case? Really, that’s your whole case? Really? Let me help you out here. 1. Establish that DE was a hero. 2. Establish that JA is doing something comparable in every significant way. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/5 "2010-11-29T15:39:27Z")
I think the biggest difference was that the pentagon papers showed that the US gov’t had been dishonest with its people regarding a war that was killing tens of thousands of Americans, while this latest leak showed that the gov’t was, if not totally honest, at least doing more or less what people assumed it was doing. Its a little weird to suggest that the morality of leaking gov’t documents is divorced from the actual content of those documents and what the leaker is trying to accomplish. That said, its also little weird that Assange has become the focus of this story. I think its an indicator of how little of actual interest was in the cables that we’re talking more about him then what was actually revealed in the leak. As I said in another thread, Assange’s contribution to the story was that he a) took files someone in the military gave him and b) put those files on the internet. Does anyone even remember the name of the equivalent guy at the NYTs that took the papers from Ellsberg and published them? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/6 "2010-11-29T15:41:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Really, that’s your whole case? Really? > > Let me help you out here. > > 1. Establish that DE was a hero. [Easy:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg) > [@](#): > > **Disaffection with Vietnam War** > > By 1969 Ellsberg began attending anti-war events while still remaining in his position at RAND. He experienced an epiphany attending a War Resisters League conference at Haverford College in August 1969, listening to a speech given by a draft resister named Randy Kehler, who said he was “very excited” that he would soon be able to join his friends in prison.[6] Ellsberg described his reaction: > > > [@](#): > > > > And he said this very calmly. I hadn’t known that he was about to be sentenced for draft resistance. It hit me as a total surprise and shock, because I heard his words in the midst of actually feeling proud of my country listening to him. And then I heard he was going to prison. It wasn’t what he said exactly that changed my worldview. It was the example he was setting with his life. How his words in general showed that he was a stellar American, and that he was going to jail as a very deliberate choice—because he thought it was the right thing to do. There was no question in my mind that my government was involved in an unjust war that was going to continue and get larger. Thousands of young men were dying each year. I left the auditorium and found a deserted men’s room. I sat on the floor and cried for over an hour, just sobbing. The only time in my life I’ve reacted to something like that.[6] > > Decades later, reflecting on Kehler’s decision, Ellsberg said, > > > [@](#): > > > > Randy Kehler never thought his going to prison would end the war. If I hadn’t met Randy Kehler it wouldn’t have occurred to me to copy [the Pentagon Papers]. His actions spoke to me as no mere words would have done. He put the right question in my mind at the right time.[6] > > **The Pentagon Papers** > > In late 1969 - with the assistance of his former RAND Corporation colleague, Anthony Russo — Ellsberg secretly made several sets of photocopies of the classified documents to which he had access; these later became known as the Pentagon Papers. As an editor of the New York Times was to write much later, these documents “demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress, about a subject of transcendent national interest and significance”.[7] They revealed that the government had knowledge, early on, that the war would not likely be won, and that continuing the war would lead to many times more casualties than was ever admitted publicly. Further, the papers showed the government had lied to Congress and the public.[7] He did the heroic thing for impeccably heroic reasons. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > 1. Establish that JA is doing something comparable in every significant way. Oh, no. I framed the debate as a challenge to others to point out the significant differences. I get to **do** that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/7 "2010-11-29T15:50:23Z")
As a preface: Daniel Ellsberg came to my high school prior to the 1991 war against Iraq and made a presentation on what was likely to happen if the madman George H.W. Bush were allowed to go through with his secret “war for oil” scheme. Basically, his conclusions were that tens of thousands of Americans would be killed by the fearsome Iraqi army (punctuated by a description of how the Iraqis would lure our military in to traps around their military fortifications in the desert, release oil and set it ablaze, leading to our servicemen being brutally burned alive), that the war would likely be a long, hard, slow slog, and a draft was almost inevitable. He then passed off the mic to various peace groups which explained that, as high schoolers, we would be ripe for the draft and there would be no college deferments, therefore we needed to start planning how to evade the upcoming draft lotteries. I concluded at that time that Daniel Ellsberg continued to bask in an unfounded and erroneous assumption among liberals that he was an informed, knowledgeable, and reputable source of opinion on national security matters; and also that he is a nut. I leave open the possibility that he may not have been a nut in the 1970s, but I have no basis to judge. However, to the extent that he may be highly regarded for the Pentagon Papers, I believe that his role in exposing the perfidy and lies of various White Houses about the course and cost of the Vietnam War is a noble goal. The real shocking thing about Wikileaks is that, with the exception of a detail here and there, all those leaked documents haven’t really revealed any big lies. Or medium sized lies. There may be some small lies that have been exposed, but I can’t think of any. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/8 "2010-11-29T15:55:08Z")
The pentagon papers seems to be a more targeted and controlled release. A compiled historical account of the Vietnam war with specific examples of government lying and overreach, sent to a reporter who published excerpts, with eventual release of much of the documentation. Wikileaks seems to just be getting together a bunch of classified emails spitting them out to the web, and letting others go over them to see if they mean anything. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/9 "2010-11-29T16:03:13Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The pentagon papers seems to be a more targeted and controlled release. A compiled historical account of the Vietnam war with specific examples of government lying and overreach, sent to a reporter who published excerpts, with eventual release of much of the documentation. > > Wikileaks seems to just be getting together a bunch of classified emails spitting them out to the web, and letting others go over them to see if they mean anything. Agreed. Plus, if **BrainGlutton** thinks Assange is a hero for making secret government information public, he must also believe that Robert Novak is a hero for outing CIA agent Valerie Plame. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/10 "2010-11-29T16:14:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The real shocking thing about Wikileaks is that, with the exception of a detail here and there, all those leaked documents haven’t really revealed any big lies. Or medium sized lies. There may be some small lies that have been exposed, but I can’t think of any. Not lies, apparently, just a lot of embarrassing little **secrets.** But, [this one](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,730979,00.html) is somewhat significant: > [@](#): > > A classified document obtained by SPIEGEL shows notes from a meeting between a top German diplomat and Condoleezza Rice just weeks before the Iraq invasion. It indicates steps by the German government to prevent the war and undermines claims in George W. Bush’s memoir that Gerhard Schröder indicated he would support the president should the US go to war. > > Gerhard Schröder and Joschka Fischer made every effort they could. The German chancellor and foreign minister spared no effort with their appeals, whether in public or private, in small groups or with the eyes of the entire world upon them. In the end, though, it was all for naught. Then-United States President George W. Bush wouldn’t allow anyone to change his mind. He was dead set on launching a war against Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and thereby bringing “freedom,” as he put it, to the Middle East. It was a freedom that Bush described as " God’s gift to mankind." > > \ > > It is facts like these that have helped stoke the outrage since Bush recently published his memoirs, “Decision Points,” in which he claims that Schröder – the very man who won re-election in 2002 in large part based on his opposition to the war – assured him in January 2002 that Germany would support the United States if it decided to go to war against Iraq. For his part, Schröder was quick to deny Bush’s comments, claiming instead that “(t)he former American president is not telling the truth.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/11 "2010-11-29T16:15:21Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Agreed. > > Plus, if **BrainGlutton** thinks Assange is a hero for making secret government information public, he must also believe that Robert Novak is a hero for outing CIA agent Valerie Plame. :dubious: Nothing in my argument even implies a position that publishing secret information is always praiseworthy in and of itself, without context. But, you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/12 "2010-11-29T16:20:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not lies, apparently, just a lot of embarrassing little **secrets.** > > But, [this one](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,730979,00.html) is somewhat significant: How is that a secret. Schröder was publically saying Bush was lying before the leaks. If an ex-German chancellor is putting it in press releases, its not a secret. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/13 "2010-11-29T16:22:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Nothing in my argument… What argument? You haven’t made one. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/14 "2010-11-29T16:24:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not lies, apparently, just a lot of embarrassing little **secrets.** If revealing some embarrassing secrets is the standard by which we judge heroes these days, then I’m sure the Editor-in-Chief of the National Enquirer is now eagerly awaiting his Presidential Medal of Freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/15 "2010-11-29T16:33:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Nothing in my argument even implies a position that publishing secret information is always praiseworthy in and of itself, without context. > > But, you knew that. Well, that answers your question, doesn’t it. It’s all about context. Ellsburg ruined his career and risked jail time to expose the fact that the government knew the war was going badly, probably could not be won, and would cost more American lives than they were letting on. Furthermore the government lied about this to the people and to Congress. Assange has other people ruin their careers and risk jail time to expose…well what, exactly? He hasn’t done any diligence with the data, possibly risking the lives of Iraqis such as interpreters, and hampering negotiations with other countries. The only thing you’ve posted so far reveals that George Bush was determined to go to war no matter what, something most of us realized in February 2003. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/16 "2010-11-30T01:20:41Z")
Ellsberg was not a hero to everyone, as Bricker has pointed out. I’ll agree that he is a hero and was at the time because he was exposing that the Vietnam war was based on a large numbers of lies and the results were being lied about at great expense in lives, money and international prestige. Now to some people that makes him a villain because he cost them money and prestige. Those people are called American conservatives. The release of the Pentagon Papers may have cost some lives, but it got us out of that stupid war years earlier and saved lots of soldiers lives. That it cost the careers of a good many war mongering bastards and adversely affected the bottom line of munitions suppliers is a very good thing. Anyone who does not four decades later realize that Ellsberg did the right thing and is a hero is exposing themselves as a war mongering vindictive turd, present company excluded. Is Assange a hero by the same logic? Well, if history turns out to vindicate him, then yes. Are some people willing to follow that logic now and bestow that status on him now, knowing that as a human being he may have feet of clay and possibly un-noble motives (which are certainly included in the package?) Yes, I am. It is pretty clear to me already that these wars are being fought stupidly and that US security precautions are highly inadequate. Exposing both now will allow for their repair before some unrepairable damage comes along. As for the fact that the State Department is used to gather intelligence on other countries, everybody with an ounce of brains and study of the history of foreign policy already knew that. They gather information and deliver messages. Read up on the life of Elizabeth’s spymaster Walsingham and you will come to understand that this has always been going on. Or Thucydides for that matter. The outrage about this is totally false. Gathering intel is much of what embassies are supposed to do so that their countries are not caught with their pants down. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/17 "2010-11-30T03:19:35Z")
There is a potential downside, I admit, in Assange’s case . . . I’m reminded of the plot of [_Rude Awakening:_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rude_Awakening_%281989_film%29) Two holdover hippies get hold of a secret U.S. government plan to invade a Central American country and try to bring it to light. Turns out it was just a hypothetical plan, but the media coverage it gets sparks public interest in a war America could win, for a change . . . So, in trying to prevent a war, the heroes inadvertently start one. Lots of imaginable ways something like that scenario could play out, here. It’s always funnier when it happens in real life! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/18 "2010-11-30T08:14:37Z")
Daniel Ellsberg was a whistleblower. Pfc Bradley Manning was a troll. The New York Times published Ellsberg’s revelations. Wikileaks processed Mr. Manning’s data dump, leaked the entire batch to 5 recognized newspapers, and then published 200 redacted cables on their own. There’s little that connects the 250,000 cables thematically. This isn’t surprising: Pfc Manning was busted after yucking it up about how much trouble these cables will cause Hillary et al. I don’t think the motivation was political so much as a prank gone wrong. (Q: What’s the difference between a harmless prank and vandalism? A: _Consequence_) Kevin Drum’s thoughts on the matter, which I support: > **[Thoughts About WikiLeaks](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/11/thoughts-about-wikileaks/)** > > So what do I actually think about the WikiLeaks dump of U.S. embassy cables? A bunch of contradictory things, it turns out. Here’s sort of a stream of consciousness of what was going through my mind yesterday as I read about this: This isn’t a... In terms of fallout, this will probably hurt the North Koreans and the Iranians more than it will hurt the US, IMHO. Probably, not definitely. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/19 "2010-11-30T08:28:32Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Wikileaks seems to just be getting together a bunch of classified emails spitting them out to the web, and letting others go over them to see if they mean anything. This is false. > [@New York Times](#): > > WikiLeaks has so far posted on its Web site only the cables that have been reviewed by and in some case redacted by The Times and the other news organizations; so far, the rest of the trove of cables remains unpublished. [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/world/30reax.html?\_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/world/30reax.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw) Look, I’m still witholding judgment on this affair: I like to do that for a few days to let things settle out. But Julian Assange hasn’t just dumped this disjointed trove of materials on the world. Whether he’s acted prudently is another matter: he certainly hasn’t enhanced his life expectancy. The Australian national is in over his head. IMHO, they should throw the book at Pfc Manning though, who is a citizen of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/20 "2010-11-30T08:41:17Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Daniel Ellsberg was a whistleblower. Pfc Bradley Manning was a troll. The New York Times published Ellsberg’s revelations. Wikileaks processed Mr. Manning’s data dump, leaked the entire batch to 5 recognized newspapers, and then published 200 redacted cables on their own. Partially agree, though Manning seems to have originally been motivated by a desire to publicize footage of two airstrikes (one in Iraq and one in Afghanistan), for which I think there’s at least a decent argument that they were inappropriately held from the public. Its obvious that at some point he suffered from “mission creep” and started giving Assange basically everything he had access to, and turned from whistle-blower to prankster. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282.md?page=2)