# Daniel Ellsberg was a hero. How is Julian Assange not a hero? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282 "2010-11-29T14:31:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/21 "2010-11-30T08:44:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I concluded at that time that Daniel Ellsberg continued to bask in an unfounded and erroneous assumption among liberals that he was an informed, knowledgeable, and reputable source of opinion on national security matters; and also that he is a nut. I leave open the possibility that he may not have been a nut in the 1970s, but I have no basis to judge. Well he wrote a widely alluded to paper in 1961, discussing what would eventually be known as the [Ellsberg paradox](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellsberg_paradox). ETA: **Simplicio** : Agreed. Or rather while I don’t necessarily fault the government for withholding the footage, I can say that its release had was a bona fide exposure of malfeasance. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/22 "2010-11-30T11:58:06Z")
nevermind ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/23 "2010-11-30T14:56:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There is a potential downside, I admit, in Assange’s case . . . I’m reminded of the plot of [_Rude Awakening:_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rude_Awakening_%281989_film%29) Two holdover hippies get hold of a secret U.S. government plan to invade a Central American country and try to bring it to light. Turns out it was just a hypothetical plan, but the media coverage it gets sparks public interest in a war America could win, for a change . . . So, in trying to prevent a war, the heroes inadvertently start one. Lots of imaginable ways something like that scenario could play out, here. It’s always funnier when it happens in real life! 🙂 Sounds like a good movie. Now that we know what more of the world really thinks about Iran getting nukes, maybe Israel will be more inclined to bomb the shit out of them.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/24 "2010-11-30T14:58:42Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well he wrote a widely alluded to paper in 1961, discussing what would eventually be known as the [Ellsberg paradox](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellsberg_paradox). And Noam Chomsky is an undisputed genius in linguistics. Still, there are those who consider him a nut/idiot/whatever. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/25 "2012-08-20T04:19:38Z")
[Julian Assange makes first public statement since seeking asylum in the Ecuadorian embassy.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19310335#TWEET200143) > [@](#): > > ulian Assange has urged the US to end its “witch-hunt” against Wikileaks, in his first public statement since entering Ecuador’s London embassy. > > He also called for the release of Bradley Manning, who is awaiting trial in the US accused of leaking classified documents to the Wikileaks site. > > Mr Assange spoke from a balcony at the embassy and thanked Ecuador’s president, who has granted him asylum. > > He faces extradition to Sweden over sexual assault claims, which he denies. > > The 41-year-old said the United States must also stop its “war on whistleblowers”. > > He added: "The United States must vow that it will not seek to prosecute our staff or our supporters. > > "The United States must pledge before the world that it will not pursue journalists for shining a light on the secret crimes of the powerful. > > Mr Assange also said the United States was facing a choice between re-affirming the “revolutionary values it was founded on” or “dragging us all into a dangerous and oppressive world in which journalists fall silent under the fear of prosecution and citizens must whisper in the dark”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/26 "2012-08-20T04:25:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Nothing in my argument even implies a position that publishing secret information is always praiseworthy in and of itself, without context. > > But, you knew that. If your statement represents your genuine belief then you obviously don’t know what the word “implies” means. > [@](#): > > Easy: Wikipedia is an extremely shitty source to use. Please explain in your words rather than relying on a source that’s useful as toilet paper but not much else. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/27 "2012-08-20T04:29:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And Noam Chomsky is an undisputed genius in linguistics. Actually, a friend of mine who’s linguist and the head of the Middle Eastern studies department of a major East Coast University would dispute that. Beyond that, such a claim shows a dramatic misunderstanding of the human condition. A prominent Nobel Prize Winner wrote some rather long essays describing the difference between “Aryan Physics” and “Jewish Physics” while, without a single exception, the head of the History department of every Ivy League school in 1910 believed in Eugenics. It’s very easy for extremely smart people to believe stupid things. For example the Ayatollah Khomeini. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/28 "2012-08-20T04:35:33Z")
[This,](http://www.thenation.com/article/169426/why-did-ecuador-grant-asylum-julian-assange) BTW, is why Ecuador gave Assange asylum: > [@](#): > > Patiño read from a list of points detailing the foundation for the asylum request by Assange, who he described as “an award-winning communications professional” known “internationally for his struggle for freedom of expression, press freedom and human rights in general.” He cited “strong evidence” that Assange faced possible “retaliation by the country or countries that produced the information,” revealed by Cablegate, noting that such retaliation “may endanger [his] safety, integrity, and even his life.” He said that “given an extradition to the United States of America, Mr. Assange would not have a fair trial, could be tried by special courts or military” and could be the victim of “cruel and degrading” treatment. > > Patiño, like many of Assange’s supporters, also acknowledged that Assange must answer for the allegations of sexual assault that have been leveled against him, but added that Swedish prosecutors have undermined his procedural rights during their investigation. Ultimately, he said, “if Mr. Assange is reduced to custody in Sweden (as is customary in this country), [it] would start a chain of events that would prevent the further protective measures taken to avoid possible extradition to a third country.” > > Prior to the announcement, Ecuador had approached the Swedish authorities and urged them to come to its embassy in London to question Assange. But when asked to provide assurance that Assange would not be extradited to the United States, Sweden refused. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/29 "2012-08-20T07:12:32Z")
I see the Pentagon Papers and the Wikileaks releases as pretty much the same sort of actions. So the question is: was Ellsberg’s crime a heroic act of criminal/civil disobedience? He had an obligation under the law and contract not to release the information. He did anyway. It lead to the end of the war. He suffered somewhat for it, but not the criminal penalties he could have been subjected to. He did expose waging war under false circumstances, which is a war crime and was instrumental in hastening an end. So that is a mitigating circumstance. He was not prosecuted. Assange is not a US citizen and not subject to US laws and a journalist too boot. Pursuing him is just nuts and venal. Assuming that the vague sex abuse charges are either valid or invalid doesn’t change that. The US looks like an idiot for pursuing Assange. Not only do we have no jurisdiction, but publishing this info is not a crime under the first amendment. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/30 "2012-08-20T08:20:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What argument? You haven’t made one. Come on, man. He’s got a lot of cutting and posting to do. That’s real work. Next you’ll be asking him to cut and paste answers, too. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/31 "2012-08-20T10:32:53Z")
Really, what I find interesting is that Ibn Warraq considers Wikipedia–which has no dead tree version, by definition–useful as toilet paper. Truly surreal. Mocking Chomsky, mocking Wikipedia, despising Assange–the thread here seems to be that Ibn Warraq hates the messenger, or people who tell him what he does not want to hear. I don’t know, I just thought it was interesting. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/32 "2012-08-20T10:58:09Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Really, what I find interesting is that Ibn Warraq considers Wikipedia–which has no dead tree version, by definition–useful as toilet paper. Truly surreal. > > Mocking Chomsky, mocking Wikipedia, despising Assange–the thread here seems to be that Ibn Warraq hates the messenger, or people who tell him what he does not want to hear. > > I don’t know, I just thought it was interesting. These days, on here, I consider someone that goes “moan moan Wikipedia is a crap source” instead of debating the point pretty much pointless to discuss anything with. They get ignored. If all you can do is moan about the source then the reality usually is that you’ve got nothing yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/33 "2012-08-20T11:00:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [This,](http://www.thenation.com/article/169426/why-did-ecuador-grant-asylum-julian-assange) BTW, is why Ecuador gave Assange asylum: That article completely leaves out what might be the most important factor: that a government friendly to Hugo Chavez is doing something to poke the imperialist United States in the eye. It ain’t exactly like Ecuador is a paradise for freedom of the press. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/34 "2012-08-20T11:23:49Z")
I’m loathe to even participate in a GD thread where \*\*BrainGlutton[/] as usual starts with a brief OP that lays out no argument, then says he won’t be making an argument because that isn’t his job, then starts doing his copy-and-paste news articles schtick. But I’ll simply point this out: Daniel Ellsberg, from what I can see, had a genuine moral issue with what was going on and felt a genuine moral need to reveal it. Further, the information he released was extremely relevant and showed the America people it was being lied to. Additionally, before publishing it, Ellsberg actually went to people inside the Nixon Administration to try and get them to go public, since the papers were from the Johnson Administration he thought they may be willing to do so. However, they were not, only then did he go to the New York Times. Bradley Manning never tried to do that, for one, so that immediately makes his behavior a little less respectable. Secondly, the equivalent of Ellsberg in this scenario is Bradley Manning, not Julian Assange. It almost is like you don’t understand the two incidents, because Assange is nothing like Ellsberg. Assange wasn’t an inside man with information, he just received information from an inside man. The content of the information is also important. By and large the WikiLeaks information dump wasn’t a big deal, multiple respected foreign policy journalists have said much of the information simply wasn’t interesting. The one thing WikiLeaks released that proved to be of any importance was that helicopter attack video. Additionally, while I don’t know what Ellsberg has done since then, at the time it doesn’t appear he did this to get attention. Assange has clearly done everything he’s done to get attention. Just like his press conference the other day where he castigated the U.S. Assange is basically an attention whore that is trolling for media hype, he’s on the balcony of the embassy blasting the U.S. for persecuting him while ignoring the fact he’s wanted on a warrant from Sweden and the U.S. has not done anything to him. There is no actual reliable evidence (and leaked diplomatic cables leaked by WikiLeaks or something aren’t evidence) that the U.S. is going to do anything to Assange. The guy is a loser who I sincerely hope ends up in Ecuador where he will quickly be forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/35 "2012-08-20T11:52:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Come on, man. He’s got a lot of cutting and posting to do. That’s real work. Next you’ll be asking him to cut and paste answers, too. Yeah, it’s breezy work compared to the snarky drive-bys that you and I labor so hard to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/36 "2012-08-20T11:57:25Z")
Your problem with Bradley Manning is that he didn’t tell his military superiors in advance that he was going to release video of the U.S. army murdering people? Um, OK. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/37 "2012-08-20T12:28:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As a preface: Daniel Ellsberg came to my high school prior to the 1991 war against Iraq and made a presentation on what was likely to happen if the madman George H.W. Bush were allowed to go through with his secret “war for oil” scheme. Basically, his conclusions were that tens of thousands of Americans would be killed by the fearsome Iraqi army (punctuated by a description of how the Iraqis would lure our military in to traps around their military fortifications in the desert, release oil and set it ablaze, leading to our servicemen being brutally burned alive), that the war would likely be a long, hard, slow slog, and a draft was almost inevitable. He then passed off the mic to various peace groups which explained that, as high schoolers, we would be ripe for the draft and there would be no college deferments, therefore we needed to start planning how to evade the upcoming draft lotteries. Boy, I bet he felt like a chump when we were greeted as liberators, uncovered stockpiles of WMD, and the war was over in a matter of weeks and completely paid for itself! Someone that embarrassingly wrong on every count should have the decency never open his mouth again, let alone be taken seriously by anyone with a functioning brain… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/38 "2012-08-20T13:48:25Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Boy, I bet he felt like a chump when we were greeted as liberators, uncovered stockpiles of WMD, and the war was over in a matter of weeks and completely paid for itself! > > Someone that embarrassingly wrong on every count should have the decency never open his mouth again, let alone be taken seriously by anyone with a functioning brain… Wrong Bush and wrong date. Wrong war. Other than that, spot on! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/39 "2012-08-20T13:53:51Z")
I shall never open my mouth again. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/40 "2012-08-20T13:55:49Z")
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