# Daniel Ellsberg was a hero. How is Julian Assange not a hero? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282 "2010-11-29T14:31:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/61 "2012-08-21T15:02:02Z")
On edit, I see that this is a zombie thread and that Measure for Measure might not have known of Manning’s treatment post incarceration, so I will retract my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/62 "2012-08-21T15:11:26Z")
Either there is government transparency or there isn’t. Conveniently, for the Government, there is transparency on matters that they want the public to know about and 0 transparency on matters that they do not want the public to know about. Sometimes those matters that they want to remain hidden have valid, logical reasons why they should remain secret (for a while at least, there should, at the base minimum be a moratorium on ALL secret government information), and sometimes they are kept hidden because they are cover ups of wrong doing. I am glad for occasional leaks like this. Unfortunately it’s the only way to keep the government on it’s toes. If it can hide wrong doing and nefarious purposes with impunity, then what are our other options? Partial transparency is NO transparency, when the very people responsible for the wrong doing are the same people with the power to hide it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/63 "2012-08-21T17:17:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > You have things exactly backward. Valerie Plame was outed to get back at her husband, Joe Wilson, for an article revealing that the Dubya falsely claimed in his state of the union message that Iraq had been seeking to buy yellowcake from Niger. Plame was outed as a CIA agent by the White House in RETALIATION for revealing a government secret. Novak was merely their willing tool. > > Joe Wilson is a hero, Novak was just a press toady for the Bush Administration … one of several that were approached by Scooter Libby and others with this information. You could not POSSIBLY have gotten things more backward. > > [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair) > > In other news, Daniel Ellsberg and Julian Assange are also heroes. Leaving aside the argument over Daniel Ellsberg and Assange, classifying Robert Novak as a “toady” of the Bush administration is asinine. Is Novak a conservative? Yes, however he was, amongst prominent Washington journalists, probably the earliest and harshest critic of the War against Iraq, just as he opposed intervention in Bosnia and the first Gulf War. Did you ever read his column on Joe Wilson, mentioning his wife? It hardly presented Wilson and his wife as villains. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/64 "2012-08-21T17:20:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Ellsberg on Assange:](http://www.democracynow.org/seo/2012/8/17/daniel_ellsberg_i_congratulate_ecuador_for#transcript) > > [Ellsberg on Manning:](http://www.democracynow.org/seo/2012/8/17/daniel_ellsberg_i_congratulate_ecuador_for#transcript) I agree that this is further evidence that Ellsberg should either have long ago departed this earth or still be holed up in a prison somewhere never to be heard from. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/65 "2012-08-21T17:26:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It seems you’ve answered your own question. Few would argue that those who work for governments should be able to have private conversations. Most of us have no problem with secrets per se. > > Per your presentation Ellsberg revealed information to expose lies and illegal actions with the understanding that he was likely going to face significant consequences for his actions. Assange exposed secrets with no end other than revealing private conversations that might be embarrassing. Assange’s mission seems to be make those who work for governments afraid to speak frankly to each other, to say, in private, what they really think about another leader lest it comes out in a dump. And to make a name for himself and get laid. And to be able to be above the law of Britain and Sweden by evoking the boogeyman of big evil United States. > > The only thing they have in common is that they both were involved in the publishing of secret information of the United States. The context and pretty much everything else about the two circumstances was completely different. And as you note, the context is what matters. Awesome post. This is exactly what I was thinking, only you phrased it much better than I would have. It deserves to be re-posted. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/66 "2012-08-21T17:46:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree that this is further evidence that Ellsberg should either have long ago departed this earth or still be holed up in a prison somewhere never to be heard from. Good point. You’re arguing that he should have been executed or thrown in prison due to his beliefs about Bradley Manning and Julian Assange? :dubious: Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/67 "2012-08-21T18:06:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re arguing that he should have been executed or thrown in prison due to his beliefs about Bradley Manning and Julian Assange? :dubious: > > Please explain. Huh? No. For his crime, of course. We screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/68 "2012-08-21T18:31:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Huh? No. For his crime, of course. We screwed up. Are you saying you were one of the Plumbers? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/69 "2012-08-21T19:27:55Z")
Wait, are there people that in all seriousness think that what Daniel Ellsberg did was somehow… wrong? He uncovered blatant lies by the government to it’s people, lies which directly led to the death of thousands. How in the hell is he not exactly that kind of American we should all be applauding? Would people here, being in his shoes, seriously collude in that kind of government cover up? Seriously? If that’s not evidence for our need for MORE governmental transparency I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/70 "2012-08-21T20:50:31Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Would people here, being in his shoes, seriously collude in that kind of government cover up? Seriously? Well, apparently **magellan01** and **Ibn Warraq** would; probably some others, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/71 "2012-08-21T21:40:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, apparently **magellan01** and **Ibn Warraq** would; probably some others, too. Please explain such a personal attack on me because it’s more than a little uncalled for. Where have I suggested that Ellsberg did anything wrong? I merely challenged your citation of wikipedia, which is horrifically unreliable, and asked you to explain in your own words why you thought Ellsberg was “a hero”. Did you not bother reading the whole thread and seeing my exchanged with **magellan01**? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/72 "2012-08-21T21:58:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Really, what I find interesting is that Ibn Warraq considers Wikipedia–which has no dead tree version, by definition–useful as toilet paper. Truly surreal. > > Mocking Chomsky, mocking Wikipedia, despising Assange–the thread here seems to be that Ibn Warraq hates the messenger, or people who tell him what he does not want to hear. > > I don’t know, I just thought it was interesting. I haven’t made any comments about Assange so I’m not sure why you’re accusing me of “despising Assange.” As for wikipedia, yes, it’s a shitty source which encourages intellectual laziness which serious people see not as more a link to sources than as an adequate source. Beyond that, being “the online encyclopedia that anyone can edit” means that most of it’s articles on “controversial subjects”, such as Ellsberg, should be taken with a huge grain of salt. There’s a reason so many college professors don’t allow their students to use it as sources anymore than they’d let students use Foxnews. As for Chomsky, what makes you think he’s not highly unreliable. He’s the guy who manufactured quotes which he falsely attributed to Harry Truman in one of his books, argued that Israel should model itself after Lebanon because Muslims and Christians in Lebanon lived “in peace and harmony”, claimed that the Cambodian Holocaust was hoax perpetrated by the US government to cover up their own war crimes, that the Khmer Rouge was no worse than the French resistance, argued that the US supported the Khurds because the Khurds are “white” whereas Arabs are “brown”. And that’s ignoring his statements regarding the slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia or the war in Vietnam. Please explain why I should view someone with such wild views as unreliable. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/73 "2012-08-22T01:01:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It seems you’ve answered your own question. Few would argue that those who work for governments should be able to have private conversations. Most of us have no problem with secrets per se. > > Per your presentation Ellsberg revealed information to expose lies and illegal actions with the understanding that he was likely going to face significant consequences for his actions. Assange exposed secrets with no end other than revealing private conversations that might be embarrassing. Assange’s mission seems to be make those who work for governments afraid to speak frankly to each other, to say, in private, what they really think about another leader lest it comes out in a dump. And to make a name for himself and get laid. And to be able to be above the law of Britain and Sweden by evoking the boogeyman of big evil United States. > > The only thing they have in common is that they both were involved in the publishing of secret information of the United States. The context and pretty much everything else about the two circumstances was completely different. And as you note, the context is what matters. This is worth highlighting, Ellsberg, from what I can tell at least at the time of his actions was not doing it for his own fame or for wealth. I’m sure Ellsberg has written books and given interviews and done public speaking and enriched himself _after_ the fact. But it does say something that he wasn’t out there actively trying to drum up money for himself while he was doing his leaking. Assange ran WikiLeaks with very clear goals: get lots of attention so the site gets lots of donations. To get attention they would need secrets to be leaked onto WikiLeak’s secure servers. Assange was one of the few people at WikiLeaks to benefit financially from all the donations, using it to fund his travel and etc. I believe Assange was also the only or one of the only persons affiliated with WikiLeaks to draw a salary. So in a very real sense, Assange’s personal income is based on how much shit he stirs up. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/74 "2012-08-22T01:06:17Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Wait, are there people that in all seriousness think that what Daniel Ellsberg did was somehow… wrong? > > He uncovered blatant lies by the government to it’s people, lies which directly led to the death of thousands. How in the hell is he not exactly that kind of American we should all be applauding? > > Would people here, being in his shoes, seriously collude in that kind of government cover up? Seriously? > > If that’s not evidence for our need for MORE governmental transparency I don’t know what is. Someone like Martin Luther King broke unjust laws for a good reason. Someone like that, you should want those laws changed and that person to escape punishment as much as possible. Someone like John Brown broke just laws (laws against insurrection, murder) for a good reason (fighting against the larger framework of slavery.) While you can sympathize with where Brown’s heart was, you can’t really approve or condone his actual actions and his punishment was just. Individuals like Ellsberg also broke just laws (laws against leaking classified information) but for a really good reason. So that puts him somewhere in between MLK and Brown to me. I feel the same for Manning, except Manning’s motivation at least in part appears to be more about his own psychological / emotional instability than anything else which muddies the issue a bit. I can’t say I’d want any law Ellsberg or Manning broke to be changed or undone, but they aren’t “as deserving” of punishment as say John Brown (who murdered innocent people for an overall righteous cause.) I guess I’d fall somewhere along the lines of thinking Manning deserves a lengthy prison sentence but not life or anything, and that is what Ellsberg should have received. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/75 "2012-08-22T12:37:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Daniel Ellsberg chimes in!](http://www.democracynow.org/seo/2012/8/17/daniel_ellsberg_i_congratulate_ecuador_for#transcript) I cannot understand how anything in that interview informs on the question you raised in the op. In this thread I have read some decent arguments for why Ellsberg’s actions should be considered heroic. Do you have _any_ reason to put forth why Assange should be considered as anything but a self-serving twit? If not then this thread is pretty dead (other than its hijack into whether or not Ellsberg’s actions were heroic) as there is _no one_ willing to argue that Assange did anything heroic at all. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/76 "2012-08-22T13:28:18Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I cannot understand how anything in that interview informs on the question you raised in the op. > > In this thread I have read some decent arguments for why Ellsberg’s actions should be considered heroic. Do you have _any_ reason to put forth why Assange should be considered as anything but a self-serving twit? If not then this thread is pretty dead (other than its hijack into whether or not Ellsberg’s actions were heroic) as there is _no one_ willing to argue that Assange did anything heroic at all. Actually, Assange is a hero. He spoke truth to power. These cavils about him doing it to make money … if there were ever a Dumbest Plan In The World for getting rich, it would be, “Let’s set up a website and publish the secrets of extremely powerful, wealthy and important people and let the bucks roll in. Nothing could go wrong!” So his secrets embarrassed US officials … so what? They did reveal lies about some of the military actions we have engaged in. But that’s not heroic enough for you, is it? It’s heroic enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282/77 "2012-08-22T14:02:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Actually, Assange is a hero. He spoke truth to power. Didn’t some of the WikiLeaks documents include the names of informants in Afghanistan? That’s not speaking truth to powerful, it’s horrendously unethical and victimizes the vulnerable. > [@](#): > > These cavils about him doing it to make money … if there were ever a Dumbest Plan In The World for getting rich, it would be, “Let’s set up a website and publish the secrets of extremely powerful, wealthy and important people and let the bucks roll in. Nothing could go wrong!” I agree he’s motivated more by principle and a love of attention than the desire for money, but this is silly. People love to hear about scandals involving the extremely powerful, wealthy, and important. Anyway it must be tough to be deeply paranoid and love the limelight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daniel-ellsberg-was-a-hero-how-is-julian-assange-not-a-hero/562282.md?page=3)