# Daredevil Season 2 - open spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 18, 2016, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383 "2016-03-18T12:16:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/121 "2016-04-29T13:10:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As for Electra, rewatch her conversation with Daredevil at the beginning of Episode 13. Listen for any trace of planning from her, any trace of initiative, any trace of independence. Is this the best they could write for Electra? Murdock is a great character, but part of what makes him great is how insufferably self-absorbed and self-important he is this season. Electra should have been giving him a metaphorical kick in the ass in that scene; instead, she’s whimpery and useless. Long range planning isn’t her strongsuit. So what? She’s shown from the beginning as impulsive and out of control. That’s part of her character. She’s methodical in her violence, but not in her long-term thinking. You didn’t like it? That’s your prerogative, but don’t make out that she suddenly changed. She didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/122 "2016-04-29T13:20:41Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Long range planning isn’t her strongsuit. So what? She’s shown from the beginning as impulsive and out of control. That’s part of her character. She’s methodical in her violence, but not in her long-term thinking. You didn’t like it? That’s your prerogative, but don’t make out that she suddenly changed. She didn’t. So show me short-range planning in that scene. Show me impulsivity in that scene. Show me out-of-control in that scene. As for telling me that not liking it is my prerogative, that’s right up there with telling me that racism is not manifested just by my declaration. Can we dispense with the Captain Obvious arguments going forward? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/123 "2016-04-29T13:35:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So show me short-range planning in that scene. Show me impulsivity in that scene. Show me out-of-control in that scene. > > As for telling me that not liking it is my prerogative, that’s right up there with telling me that racism is not manifested just by my declaration. Can we dispense with the Captain Obvious arguments going forward? You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. I didn’t see anything racist about it at all. Nowhere did it say that all Asians were ninjas or heroin smugglers any more than all DAs are corrupt or all blind white lawyers are superheroes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/124 "2016-04-29T14:11:26Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Woah dude, you’re blowing my mind! Next are you going to tell me that I have freedom of speech? That it’s only fiction? That 1+1=2? Seriously, man. Are these cliched truisms the strongest arguments you can raise against what I am saying? > [@](#): > > I didn’t see anything racist about it at all. Nowhere did it say that all Asians were ninjas or heroin smugglers any more than all DAs are corrupt or all blind white lawyers are superheroes. That’s not how racism works. Did you read the articles I linked to? Do you recognize that racism can be demonstrated when characters of particular ethnicities are characterized primarily through the use of stereotypes? Because if your standard for racism is that a show must say “all Asians are ninjas,” of course it’s not racist, but that’s a crazy-high standard for racism, one that not even \*\*Birth of a Nation" meets. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/125 "2016-04-29T14:18:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Woah dude, you’re blowing my mind! It’s a very small explosion. > [@](#): > > That’s not how racism works. I don’t share your views of how racism works. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/126 "2016-04-29T14:52:08Z")
The world according to Daredevil: White people jobs: Superhero, defense lawyer, journalist, crime boss, criminal, cop, grizzled martial arts master, war veteran, assassin, hospital administrator, DA. Asian people’s jobs: Ninjas, crime bosses, crime bosses who also paint cherry blossom. Characterisation of white individuals: complex, multi-faceted, contradictory. Characterisation of Asian individuals: Trick question, they don’t have individual characterisation! Characterisation of Asians as a whole: Evil. Inscrutable. Time spent developing empathy for white antagonists by examining their motivations and formative experiences: episode upon episode upon episode. Time spent developing empathy for Asian antagonists by examining their motivations and formative experiences: Nil\* Number of times Daredevil looks directly at camera and says, “Take it from me, kids: all Asians are ninjas.”: None. Guess that’s all just peachy then. \*Writing this, I realise why I don’t give a shit about the Hand. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/127 "2016-04-29T15:06:28Z")
You don’t pay attention very well. The DA was a black woman. The Assistant DA was a black man. Their biggest ally on the police force and eventually a detective was a black man. The respected journalist who helped them out in season one was a black man. But I guess when all you look for is racism, you see it everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/128 "2016-04-29T15:09:44Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > You don’t pay attention very well. > The DA was a black woman. > The Assistant DA was a black man. > Their biggest ally on the police force and eventually a detective was a black man. > The respected journalist who helped them out in season one was a black man. > > But I guess when all you look for is racism, you see it everywhere. If only someone had talked about anti-black racism, this would be an effective rebuttal, if they hadn’t killed off the only major black man in season 1 as a way to show how bad the bad guy was. But we’re talking about anti-Asian racism. And if you see me only looking for racism, that’s because you didn’t read my first post in this thread very carefully at all. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/129 "2016-04-29T15:20:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If only someone had talked about anti-black racism, this would be an effective rebuttal, if they hadn’t killed off the only major black man in season 1 as a way to show how bad the bad guy was. But we’re talking about anti-Asian racism. He said that DA was a job for white men in the Daredevil universe. He made the false dichotomy between white people and Asian people stereotypes. You’re the one that doesn’t read (or watch) very carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/130 "2016-04-29T15:26:03Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > He said that DA was a job for white men in the Daredevil universe. He made the false dichotomy between white people and Asian people stereotypes. You’re the one that doesn’t read (or watch) very carefully. The DA was a black woman? Reyes was black? [Michelle Hurd](https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=michelle%20hurd%20ethnicity) is ethnically German, Irish, and Jamaican. So, yeah, sure, by the “one drop rule,” she’s black, I guess. I wouldn’t have IDed her as black, I had to look it up to see that she was. Ironically, as part of your accusation that I didn’t read carefully, you say he represented DA as a job for white men. Reread what he said :). Still completely irrelevant when discussing Asian stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/131 "2016-04-29T15:29:08Z")
And yet he made it relevant by saying it was a job for whites. And if someone who is only partly black is white in your eyes, I guess that makes President Obama white, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/132 "2016-04-29T15:41:16Z")
Oh look, I fucked up. Yes, the ruthlessly ambitious DA who was prepared to give it all up to protect her child was mixed race. That’s a great character with depth and complexity. Generally, black/mixed race people have a greater mix of roles - they’ve been corrupt cops, good cops, low-level criminals, allies, enemies, critics… What about for Asians? Is the list anything other than ninja or crime boss? ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/133 "2016-04-29T15:55:07Z")
Well, there was that Asian kid that Stick killed. Apparently he was a bearer of some mystical power, whose existence was foretold by prophesy… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/134 "2016-04-29T15:55:59Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > And yet he made it relevant by saying it was a job for whites. > And if someone who is only partly black is white in your eyes, I guess that makes President Obama white, correct? Good god almighty. None of this has anything to do with Asian stereotypes at all. If you really want to discuss this, I double super secret promise to participate in the new thread you open on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/135 "2016-04-29T16:12:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Good god almighty. None of this has anything to do with Asian stereotypes at all. If you really want to discuss this, I double super secret promise to participate in the new thread you open on the topic. I’d rather you left race out of the discussion of the Daredevil series, but you seem intent on bringing it into the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/136 "2016-04-29T16:15:23Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > The world according to Daredevil: > White people jobs: Superhero, defense lawyer, journalist, crime boss, criminal, cop, grizzled martial arts master, war veteran, assassin, hospital administrator, DA. > Asian people’s jobs: Ninjas, crime bosses, crime bosses who also paint cherry blossom. > > Characterisation of white individuals: complex, multi-faceted, contradictory. > Characterisation of Asian individuals: Trick question, they don’t have individual characterisation! > Characterisation of Asians as a whole: Evil. Inscrutable. > > Time spent developing empathy for white antagonists by examining their motivations and formative experiences: episode upon episode upon episode. > Time spent developing empathy for Asian antagonists by examining their motivations and formative experiences: Nil\* > > Number of times Daredevil looks directly at camera and says, “Take it from me, kids: all Asians are ninjas.”: None. > Guess that’s all just peachy then. > > \*Writing this, I realise why I don’t give a shit about the Hand. Reading this, I realized why I don’t, either; nice roundup. Seriously, going by this show, any random Asian drawn from the crowd (Asians always do come in crowds, don’t they?) has better than even chances to a) know kung-fu, b) be embroiled in the smuggling of opiates, and c) have some connections to ancient mysteries and stuff. I bet they’re all math prodigies raised by overly demanding parents, too, but they didn’t get a chance to show this. And I say that as somebody who loved the show regardless. Doesn’t mean I think it was flawless. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/137 "2016-04-29T16:23:39Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I’d rather you left race out of the discussion of the Daredevil series, but you seem intent on bringing it into the matter. I’m limiting my discussion to anti-Asian stereotypes. I’m discussing no other racist issues with the show, although it does have some other problems; none of the others are nearly as serious. I’ll not wander further down this garden path. Unless you want to discuss the anti-Asian stereotypes (or some bizarre belief in their nonexistence in the show), we’re done here. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/138 "2016-04-29T16:37:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m limiting my discussion to anti-Asian stereotypes. I’m discussing no other racist issues with the show, although it does have some other problems; none of the others are nearly as serious. I’ll not wander further down this garden path. Unless you want to discuss the anti-Asian stereotypes (or some bizarre belief in their nonexistence in the show), we’re done here. Hard to discuss something that doesn’t exist. I’m happy to be done with this ridiculous conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/139 "2016-04-29T17:20:55Z")
The problem with bringing “OMG that’s so racist” into discussions like these is that is that people have a level playing field for the discussion in terms of language and what words mean. People like to move the goal post for racism around quite a bit. How do the Irish and the Russians stack up when the same criteria is applied to them? Is the portrayal of them racist or bigoted? The hardest part is at what point is a portrayal racist or realistic (in the confines of the story) -Ninjas -\* The story is about ninjas. \* -Who spoke English with heavy accents. _And? Are accents racist by default? They weren’t speaking “engrish” and no one sounded like Long Duck Dong._ -Who paint cherry blossoms and drink tea from elaborate tea sets _Yeah…in the dog pile that does stick out._ -Who meditate in front of bamboo screens - _it’s a hallmark of the trope of NINJAs._ -Whose motivations are almost nonexistent compared to the motivations of the white villains (compare Nabu to The Punisher, Wilson Fisk, or Stick) -\* This is just opinion. \*_What was Fisk’s motivations- nebulous power over hell’s kitchen. How is that different from the Hand’s nebulous plans? What did Stick want? DD even called him out on how the “War” didn’t mean anything._ -Who deal in opium - _What region does the opium trade ship from again?_ The issue is also that there are no prominent Asian characters NOT related to the Hand or to Madame Gao. I understand this argument, but that doesn’t make the show racist since it doesn’t purport a viewpoint of racism against Asians. Representation is hugely important but it must also be acknowledged that in a post-modern reading of media, no one thinks all Asians are ninjas or opium dealers. You can’t call racism because the story about ninjas features ninjas and that those ninjas are from Asia and played by Asian actors. The flip of this was when TMNT was going to make Shredder an evil white business man and people called RACISM and white-washing! There’s no winning. Same thing is happening with Dr. Strange with the Ancient One–who is the most ridiculously stereotypical Asian character you can imagine-- they cast a seemingly gender neutral white woman in the role and they get called racist. I do think this all strengthens my belief that Marvel did eff up royally by not casting an Asian-American actor as Danny Rand. The “white savior trope” is more harmful than “Asian knows kung fu” trope. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383/140 "2016-04-29T17:58:45Z")
[Will there be a season 3 and if so when?](http://www.morningledger.com/daredevil-season-3-officially-cancelled-to-make-way-for-the-defenders/1368145/) It seems like it may minimally be a while. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daredevil-season-2-open-spoilers/749383.md?page=8)