# dark Phoenix- seen = critics pile on job? A very watchable movie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 15, 2019, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547 "2019-06-15T06:33:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/1 "2019-06-15T06:33:43Z")
I see the reviews and keep watching this saying, ok at some point this is going to really start to suck I guess, but it never did suck, it was average to above IMO, nowhere near the class of Fantastic Four. No dull spots, IMO acting overall good, esp. Lawrence, McAvoy, Magneto. Solid opening scene, good death scene, sensible ending, standard superhero take over the world/destroy the world plot, no better no worse than Avengers plot. Phoenix interesting story, decent conflict, solid finale- what’s to hate? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/2 "2019-06-15T13:42:37Z")
So, the best thing since _Freddy Got Fingered_? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/3 "2019-06-15T14:27:02Z")
Critics don’t “pile on.” They write their reviews independents when the see the movie, and never see anyone else’s review until after theirs is complete. If the critical consensus is that a movie sucks, then the movie sucks. You may be happy seeing a “standard superhero take over the world/destroy the world plot,” but people who see a lot of movies want to see something more ambitious and, if you’re going to use a cliched and well-worn story, you need to do something other than paint it by the numbers. If it’s no better than the dozens of superhero movies using the exact same plot, why not just rewatch them? ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/4 "2019-06-15T19:01:02Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Critics don’t “pile on.” They write their reviews independents when the see the movie, and never see anyone else’s review until after theirs is complete. > > If the critical consensus is that a movie sucks, then the movie sucks. You may be happy seeing a “standard superhero take over the world/destroy the world plot,” but people who see a lot of movies want to see something more ambitious and, if you’re going to use a cliched and well-worn story, you need to do something other than paint it by the numbers. If it’s no better than the dozens of superhero movies using the exact same plot, why not just rewatch them? thanks, but was really looking for comments from people who saw it, you have not. Looks like no one has:) My point is, this one is no better or worse than many others, including a few X-Men, hulk, Captain Marvel, Thor- etc.- not inferior to, as good as. So why the hate. And take it from someone from knows, actually knows not thinks he knows, just because RT doesn’t post them doesnt mean critics dont know each other, talk. etc. and the last thing one of them, other than the contrarians want to do is publish is a glowing five star review and be the only one. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/5 "2019-06-15T19:10:34Z")
If you dont believe, here is simple proof- Toy Story 4’s on RT have jumped in number from 36 to 74 to 90 in the last three days. If I am writing mine now, I have access to what _at least_ 90 others think and wrote. Do you really think all reviewers get in room like the ACT and you have four hours to write it and turn it in? Do you understand the concert of ‘critic screenings’? plus this one has one of the bigger gaps in disparity on RT critic v. fan- 23% to 64% currently- and most reviewers now are just average people who have seen a bunch of movies, agree- so basically fans right? So why one group of fans say 23% and another 64%? Why would pay matter, if it doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/6 "2019-06-15T19:21:06Z")
I’ve seen it. It was a bad movie. Characters just appear without even being identified, much less established as people the audience should care about. The same is true of plot elements, including the central point of the entire movie, the Phoenix Force (I don’t think the movie ever actually explains how or why it merges with Jean Grey). Sophie Turner’s performance is bland and listless - she seems to be just sleepwalking her way through the movie. Most of the other actors at least appear to be trying, but most of them don’t have much to work with. It includes hackneyed cliches like a funeral in the pouring rain. The climax is a confused CGI mess with that provides no sense of scale, tension, or drama. Of course, all of the above is merely my personal opinion. YMMV. But I think it’s solidly in the bottom tier of modern superhero movies. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/7 "2019-06-15T19:38:31Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > I’ve seen it. It was a bad movie. > > Of course, all of the above is merely my personal opinion. YMMV. But I think it’s solidly in the bottom tier of modern superhero movies. Thanks, this is what I was looking for, an unbiased review by someone who paid 12 bucks to see it, and not a reviewer with possible motive or agenda. Respect:) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/8 "2019-06-18T17:09:15Z")
Two things that clearly point to people, not critics, attitudes about this film. 1. In it’s 2nd weekend it dropped 71%! :eek: That’s a startling drop. Just wow. Critics don’t cause large 2nd weekend drops. Word of mouth does. 2. It’s CinemaScore is B-. Remember: Even junky horror films often get at least a B+. This measure is heavily skew towards B+/A/A+. Fans are fans. This is the lowest CinemaScore of any X-Men movie. This was the biggest 2nd week drop of any X-Men movie. This was the lowest opening weekend of any X-Men movie. To suggest that there is a critic pile-on going on is ridiculous. If anything they are being kinder than the above viewer data would suggest. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/9 "2019-06-18T17:30:57Z")
Everyone I know who has seen it said it was a dog. I haven’t seen it myself because I trust their word on it and have other things to spend my time/money on. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/10 "2019-06-18T17:32:06Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > If the critical consensus is that a movie sucks, then the movie sucks. Which is how we know _It’s A Wonderful Life_ is a horrible sack of shit. Ditto _The Shining_ and _Vertigo_ and _The General_ and _The Thing_ and _Groundhog Day_ and _The Thing_ and _Groundhog Day_ and _Touch of Evil_ and _Predator_ and _The Exorcist_. All utterly unwatchable and completely forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/11 "2019-06-18T18:24:08Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Two things that clearly point to people, not critics, attitudes about this film. > > 1. In it’s 2nd weekend it dropped 71%! :eek: That’s a startling drop. Just wow. Critics don’t cause large 2nd weekend drops. Word of mouth does. > > 2. It’s CinemaScore is B-. Remember: Even junky horror films often get at least a B+. This measure is heavily skew towards B+/A/A+. Fans are fans. > > This is the lowest CinemaScore of any X-Men movie. > This was the biggest 2nd week drop of any X-Men movie. > This was the lowest opening weekend of any X-Men movie. > > To suggest that there is a critic pile-on going on is ridiculous. If anything they are being kinder than the above viewer data would suggest. Appreciate the response, but was looking for those who actually saw it and can think and critique independently- you have not seen correct? Anyone who saw and thinks it was a dog, independent of the reviews- absolutely fine. Actually second week percent drop second worst ever, of any film, to one of the 50 shades films. But cite that critics could not have caused that? Critics, or word of mouth from those who have not seen it? Because the RT audience score is 64%, so the majority of people who actually paid to watch it, liked it. Compare that to the 18% approval from fans for the last Fantastic Four. No comparison, at all, between these two. And you could not be more wrong about horror, which typically is a genre that has the most discriminate fans- bad horror usually gets C to F Cinemascore, with @10 of the 19 F’s in history being horror. Universally praised “Us” has a B Cinemascore, as proof. A “B-” indicates a good or slightly above average film, not a disaster. Which is my opinion- completely into it while it was on, glad I saw it, don’t feel cheated out of 12 bucks but probably wont ever watch or think of it again. A difference between reviewer and fan 23 to 64% is on the extremely high side- **what would you, personally give as the reason that the average paying fan liked it, and the average reviewer thought it was a total disaster?** A large gulf between fan and critic, when the critic is high and fan is low, is common, indicating the film may have been mismarketed or too different or cerebral than what the average person wants- for proof, critically praised films like Solaris, Killing them Softly and Mother! all have cinemascore F’s, would you say these are three of the worst films ever made? No. **A gulf in the opposite direction, like this, is rare- can you account for it?** ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/12 "2019-06-18T18:24:56Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > Thanks, this is what I was looking for, an unbiased review by someone who paid 12 bucks to see it, and not a reviewer with possible motive or agenda. What makes you think \*\*gdave \*\*doesn’t have a motive or an agenda? ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/13 "2019-06-18T18:33:30Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > What makes you think \*\*gdave \*\*doesn’t have a motive or an agenda? Well I take anyone on this board at their word without a reason not to. He or she is anonymous and only commented on the film when asked, and to another unknown poster on a little known message board, so I cant imagine what the agenda might be in this case? As opposed to a reviewer whose comments will be read by millions, this has been read by a few hundred. So if **gdave** is one of the films’ producers who got screwed out of a screen credit, there are better outlets for fake reviews- imdb comment section would have gotten 100x the reads than this. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/14 "2019-06-18T18:50:11Z")
In these conversations, people always dismiss that they (or others) could possibly be influenced by cultural zeitgeist. ‘It sucks because it sucks’ and not because we’re just not really into X-Men movies right now. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/15 "2019-06-18T18:54:02Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > As opposed to a reviewer whose comments will be read by millions That’s not a motivation either, it’s merely a soapbox. Reviewers are paid to give their opinion of movies - what additional motivations or agendas do they need to pan movies that they don’t like? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/16 "2019-06-18T19:01:45Z")
I could care less what reviewers say about any given movie - but when you see a “97% fresh” rating oh one that comes in with tons of negative - it does give you an idea for how one will be recieved and how it will fare. That being said - we saw it - and its just like every other x-men franchise movie out there - its simply nothing special. It is, literally, paint by numbers for the x-men franchise. the reason for the drop in attendence from week 1 to week 2? This is the kind of movie that everyone that is generally interested in seeing it at the theatre will do it in the first weekend - and there were plenty of open seats for it. If it were truly special, word of mouth would have maybe helped it a second weekend. And you know a movie’s really not doing well when you have to start a thread here @ the SDMB asking “did anyone else actaully go see this thing?” ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/17 "2019-06-18T19:08:17Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > That’s not a motivation either, it’s merely a soapbox. Reviewers are paid to give their opinion of movies - what additional motivations or agendas do they need to pan movies that they don’t like? I don’t know the current status, but there was a time when exactly one reviewer gave a negative to “Get Out”, and I saw and read multiple interviews with him, strictly because of this. So for someone who wants the attention, a reason to be a contrarian. For an introvert, all the more reason to go with the flow. Plus, “it was an average movie” does not get hits to your review site, and that is what often puts money in the reviewers pocket. **The biggest piece of shit, ever**! is more likely to be read (and quoted, and get you attention and $$$)than “decent flick”. Plus- gone are the days of there being ten movie reviewers total, all similar age and background- Ebert, Siskel, Reed, Shalit, Kael. etc. A big movie now might have 300+ reviews, and looking at many of the photos beside the review, you see a large number of regular average people, young and old, all races- just like the average paying fan. So if the average reviewer nowadays is no different than the average paying moviegoer, why the 23% to 64% disparity? That is a HUGE gap for a film. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/18 "2019-06-18T19:15:06Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > If you dont believe, here is simple proof- Toy Story 4’s on RT have jumped in number from 36 to 74 to 90 in the last three days. If I am writing mine now, I have access to what _at least_ 90 others think and wrote. Yes, but most of the reviews which showed up on RT over the past three days likely weren’t _written_ during those three days; they were probably written days (if not weeks) ago, after the reviewers saw the film in preview screenings. They show up on RT when the reviews are _released_, which may well be days, if not weeks, after the reviewers saw the film and wrote their reviews. This, and your thread on Ebert, suggest that you really do believe that reviewers conspire with each other to move the market. Just call me very skeptical on this. Regarding Dark Phoenix: no, I haven’t seen it, and no, I don’t plan to. That said, I haven’t read a single review of it, though I’ve noted that, generally, it’s gotten bad reviews. I’ve been a fan of the X-Men franchise since I discovered the comic books 35 years ago, and Jean Grey is one of my favorite characters. And, I really really liked several of the X-Men films (the first two of the original series, and the first two of the “reboot” series). I’m basing my choice to not see this film on several other factors: - A good friend of mine, who’s a lifelong comic book fan, and a screenwriter in his own right, saw it, and told me that he found it to be a hot mess. - Of my superhero-loving friends who’ve seen it, not one of them has had anything positive to say about it. - I saw the last X-Men film (“X-Men: Apocalypse”), and I felt that it was the second-weakest of any of the films in the franchise (behind only “The Last Stand”). More importantly, that film was Sophie Turner’s first time playing Jean Grey, and I really didn’t like her in the role – I found her performance to be flat, and other than the red hair, she didn’t look or feel like Jean Grey, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/19 "2019-06-18T19:24:05Z")
kenobi 65, thanks for the comments. Conspire may be too strong a word, but I do think if the first ten published reviews for Dark Phoenix had been moderate, the current state of them in totality would be a bit different. Herd mentality if you will. Not glowing, but not in Fantastic Four category either, which this definitely is not- 64% fan score vs 18% FF. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547/20 "2019-06-18T19:45:45Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > kenobi 65, thanks for the comments. Conspire may be too strong a word, but I do think if the first ten published reviews for Dark Phoenix had been moderate, the current state of them in totality would be a bit different. Herd mentality if you will. Again, you’re proceeding from the assumption that the later reviewers (“later” being defined as “the date when their review gets posted to Rotten Tomatoes”) are reading the earlier reviews before writing their own reviews, and allowing those to influence their evaluations (consciously or not). At least for professional reviewers (i.e., those working for media properties like newspapers, TV networks, etc.), I’m really skeptical about that idea. Maybe a few are, but I would suspect that would be the exception to the rule. As I understand the process, they go to a screening well ahead of the publication date of their reviews, likely write their reviews soon after seeing the preview, and then that review sits there, waiting to be published, until closer to the film’s release date (i.e., when it becomes more newsworthy). That said, in the social media era, when anyone with a webcam and a a pulse can make themselves into a self-styled reviewer, yeah, maybe some of those folks are reading other reviews first. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-phoenix-seen-critics-pile-on-job-a-very-watchable-movie/835547.md?page=2)