# Dark Sponge Knows The Secrets Of Judaism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2021, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943 "2021-07-08T01:06:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/101 "2021-07-09T19:46:59Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > if you want to maintain your insistence that Bob Dylan and Josh Groban are Messianic Jews, for whatever goddamn reason you are doing so. WTF? I’m not insisting anything. I looked up famous Messianic Jews and that page came up. You provided zero examples to back up your claim that almost all Messianic Jews are involved in Republican politics. That’s the last time I try and do your homework for you. Dumbass. I know at least two J4Js who aren’t involved with Republican politics – my step-uncle and his girlfriend. So, that’s already not “most”. Your move, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/102 "2021-07-09T19:47:16Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Almost all “Messianic Jews” are Jewish-born political conservatives who needed to become Christian in order to advance in their social realm. Just, wow. Which I would say no matter which religion you picked to announce to the world that almost all of them are conservatives “who needed to become Christian”. My “anecdote of one” is a family near us, faithful conservative Jews who decided that Jesus might just be the Messiah. They still attend temple, read the Torah etc, Bar Mitzvah their kids (for the presents? Only YHWH knows…). I’ve heard them call themselves Messianic Jews, and they’ve had good conversations with their Rabbi, so they didn’t get kicked out… oh, and they’re flaming liberals. In fact, the dad has mentioned that Republicanism is incompatible with the teachings of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/103 "2021-07-09T19:49:08Z")
OK, pile on more examples, then! My step-uncle, his girlfriend, the family you know on one side, Jay S. on the other. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/104 "2021-07-09T19:51:27Z")
> [@digs](#): > > My “anecdote of one” is a family near us, faithful conservative Jews who decided that Jesus might just be the Messiah. They still attend temple, read the Torah etc, Bar Mitzvah their kids (for the presents? Only YHWH knows…). I’ve heard them call themselves Messianic Jews … This sounds like the group I mentioned above. Who were definitely not politically active, as far as I could tell. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/105 "2021-07-09T19:52:56Z")
> [@digs](#): > > My “anecdote of one” is a family near us, faithful conservative Jews who decided that Jesus might just be the Messiah. They still attend temple, read the Torah etc, Bar Mitzvah their kids (for the presents? Only YHWH knows…). They’ve had good conversations with their Rabbi, they didn’t get kicked out… oh, and they’re flaming liberals. If they attend a conservative Jewish temple then they obviously are not Messianic Jews, they’re Jews with fringe beliefs about Jesus. This isn’t no true scotsman, maybe the confusion in terms is the problem here. Messianic Jews belong to Messianic Jewish churches, not real Jewish temples. It’s a specific religious movement, it’s not a phrase for “any Christian with some Jewish ancestry,” “any Jew who converts to Christianity,” or “Christians who interpret scripture to conclude that Jesus is the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy” as the linked webpage seems to think it is. I don’t think you know Messianic Jews, I think you know typical semi-secularized Jews who are used to saying things like “Jesus was a nice man” because they don’t want to argue about religion with you. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/106 "2021-07-09T20:01:56Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Messianic Jews belong to Messianic Jewish churches I’m amazed that there are Messianic Jewish churches, since, according to you, “almost all” Messianic Jews are Republican operatives. I’m amazed that have enough people to fill the pews. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/107 "2021-07-09T20:07:20Z")
They have about 400 total churches with somewhere between 200K and 300K members, about 2/3 of them in the U.S. Given that over 74M people voted for Trump in 2020 I’m not sure what you find so implausible about maybe 0.2% of them belonging to this movement. If you want to talk about “Jews who think Jesus had some interesting ideas” or “Christians who are proud of their Jewish ancestry” or even the actual topic of this thread which is the origin and motives of a pernicious Christian myth about Jews hiding the scriptures from each other, you are free to do so. If you want to talk about Messianic Judaism, a specific religious movement, you should accept that it’s very intertwined with conservative American politics and that Josh Groban and Bob Dylan do not belong to it. Not just because those assertions are true, but because they are entirely non-controversial and no one who knows anything about Messianic Judaism would find them worth arguing against. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/108 "2021-07-09T20:14:28Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Almost all “Messianic Jews” are Jewish-born political conservatives who needed to become Christian in order to advance in their social realm. > [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > They have about 400 total churches with somewhere between 200K and 300K members, about 2/3 of them in the U.S. Given that over 74M people voted for Trump in 2020 I’m not sure what you find so implausible about maybe 0.2% of them belonging to this movement. These are not the same claim, especially since you say that 1/3 don’t even live in the US. I don’t know how you’ll get to “almost all”, with 1/3 not even here. Dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/109 "2021-07-09T20:20:15Z")
Most of the rest are in Israel for reasons very easily connected to American right-wing politics. The two most prominent Messianic Jews are Jay Sekulow and Kirt Schneider. They are both close confidants of Donald Trump. If you have some other suggestion as to who the face or leader of this movement is, come out with it. This time try not to name 4 people who have never been involved with Messianic Judaism including one who died 20 years before it was founded. Or, pick any location (where you live, if that’s something you share, or any place you want to make up, it doesn’t matter) and we’ll examine the website of the closest Messianic Jewish church and see what the group and its leaders have to say about politics. I think that’s a better approach than “I know some people who I think are Messianic Jews even though every bit of information I’ve shared about them shows they aren’t, and I think they’re not Republicans.” ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/110 "2021-07-09T20:23:56Z")
I think I’m done dancing for you. Dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/111 "2021-07-09T21:58:56Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > That said, I have met Messianic Jews who are ethnically Jewish, who grew up observant, and who describe themselves as Jews, not as Christians. If they believe Jesus is the messiah then they’re not Jews anymore in the religious sense, they’re Christian regardless of what their ancestors were. You can’t believe in a false messiah AND be Jewish (she says from the Jewish viewpoint, which holds that Jesus was NOT a messiah - she is well aware the Christians see this differently). > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > That’s all I meant by “hard to pigeonhole” – I was just going by how some of those (few) I’ve met identify. So some do identify as Jewish. Other Jews may call them Christians. Do they believe Jesus is the messiah? Then they’re Christians. See, that wasn’t hard at all. Their ancestry remains Jewish, but they’re Christians. If they say otherwise they’re wrong. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Also the one bunch I’ve run into in my life had religious practices (rituals and so on) that would be completely alien to any other Christian sect. Some wore yarmulkes. They had services on Saturday. And so on. My Catholic never-Jewish-in-his-life brother-in-law wore a yarmulkes to my grandmother’s funeral. There is no bar to gentiles wearing that particular head-covering. If you’re ever invited to a Sabbath meal or a Passover Seder at a Jewish household all the males will be asked to wear one regardless of their personal faith, or otherwise cover their head, out of respect for Jewish traditions and ritual. So wearing one is no big deal nor is it some definitive sign of being Jewish. Seventh Day Adventists are Christians who have their services on Saturday. There are others, but they tend to be small a obscure (Church of God of Cincinnati, The Common Faith Network, and others). So Saturday services aren’t a definitive trait marking someone as Jewish. It’s fine with me if Jews that have converted to Christianity want to maintain many Jewish traditions and forms of worship - there’s no reason they can’t. But if they’re worshiping Jesus or claiming him as messiah then what they’re doing isn’t Judaism. It’s Christianity. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Sorry, this is a side trip. If I was wrong to consider them to be Jews and not Christians, I apologize to anyone this may offend. I was just going by what they called themselves. No worries (at least from me). I am not offended by where you were coming from. If I’m offended at all it’s by the actions of people purporting to be religiously observant Jews who really do know better. It’s on them, not you. > [@digs](#): > > My “anecdote of one” is a family near us, faithful conservative Jews who decided that Jesus might just be the Messiah. They still attend temple, read the Torah etc, Bar Mitzvah their kids (for the presents? Only YHWH knows…). I’ve heard them call themselves Messianic Jews, and they’ve had good conversations with their Rabbi, so they didn’t get kicked out… oh, and they’re flaming liberals. You can hold heretical thoughts in Judaism and still attend synagogue, though probably best if you don’t broadcast them too widely. Judaism is weird that way. I know atheist Jews who still attend synagogue and go through all the rituals. Judaism is, in some ways, more performance-based than faith based. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/112 "2021-07-09T22:08:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You can’t believe in a false messiah AND be Jewish (she says from the Jewish viewpoint, which holds that Jesus was NOT a messiah - she is well aware the Christians see this differently). Does mainstream Judaism also unequivocally reject e.g. Chabad? Sabbateans, etc ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/113 "2021-07-09T22:10:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I know atheist Jews who still attend synagogue and go through all the rituals. Judaism is, in some ways, more performance-based than faith based. Which I think is much superior. No thought police trying to figure out what you believe and whether you should be in the In Group (the fundie church I used to go to had busybodies like that). I was surprised when I told my girlfriend’s pastor (liberal-in-all-senses Lutheran) that I didn’t believe half of Christian dogma, and he said “You’re welcome to fellowship with us. I mean, I wouldn’t want to be part of a church where everyone believed exactly the same.” e p i l o g u e : Married the girlfriend, joined the church, and a half dozen of us Doper-types raise hell (and a lot of sticky sticking points) in the Men’s Beer ‘n’ Book Study group. . ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/114 "2021-07-09T22:18:24Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Married the girlfriend, joined the church, and a half dozen of us Doper-types raise hell (and a lot of sticky sticking points) in the Men’s Beer ‘n’ Book Study group. I used to do Bible study with a couple of friends and some church folks. It was really fun. We’d start by reading a passage, talk about what it was supposed to mean, then veer off into some weird tangent like quantum physics or ancient geography or music history. Sort of like a typical SDMB thread. We were also different in terms of philosophy but open-minded and not judgmental. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/115 "2021-07-10T00:12:05Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > You can’t believe in a false messiah AND be Jewish (she says from the Jewish viewpoint, which holds that Jesus was NOT a messiah - she is well aware the Christians see this differently). > > Does mainstream Judaism also unequivocally reject e.g. Chabad? Sabbateans, etc Well… neither the Chabad nor the Sabbateans hold Jesus to be the messiah… Suffice to say some of the claims of those two groups are controversial in broader Judaism, but yes, most “mainstream” Jews consider those two groups Jewish. Weird, but Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/116 "2021-07-10T00:23:28Z")
[Fake Shabbat Police] Sundown is a-comin’ in. Let’s hit the ⏸ button until tomorrow night. [/FSP] 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/117 "2021-07-10T00:40:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well… neither the Chabad nor the Sabbateans hold Jesus to be the messiah… > > Suffice to say some of the claims of those two groups are controversial in broader Judaism, but yes, most “mainstream” Jews consider those two groups Jewish. Weird, but Jewish. You don’t stop being Jewish for heresy, but your standing as a Jew in the religious community will be severely damaged. There are no Sabbateans anymore. Haven’t been for 200 years, as far as I know. Many Chabad members either reject Messianism or play coy about their beliefs. The ones that openly proclaim Schneerson to be the Messiah are denounced as incorrect by the other branches of Orthodoxy, but so far it hasn’t risen beyond that. Obviously, Chabad Messianism isn’t the same thing as just becoming a Christian. The issue with Messianic Judaism isn’t just belief in a messiah that isn’t accepted by Jewish leaders, it’s a combination of the fact that it was quite obviously a movement founded by Christians to deceive Jews into converting, and the fact that a huge body of Jewish law and custom has developed in order to respond to and avoid a very long tradition of Christian persecution. You will occasionally meet people who consider themselves “Jewish Buddhists” which is just as theologically incoherent as Messianic Judaism, but isn’t going to set off any big emotional reactions because Buddhism isn’t the religion that’s been oppressing and killing Jews for 1800 years. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/118 "2021-07-10T00:45:44Z")
This would be so much easier if people would stop saying that being Jewish means you’re Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/119 "2021-07-10T01:02:27Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > You know what? Fuck it. I over-reacted. I apologize. Genuinely, no sarcasm, I apologize. > > Some of what I said is true, but nonetheless, I overreacted. Props. Here’s the thing though. Setting aside what was stated and what was implied, a lot of people from squirrely fundamentalist protestant Christian sects like to make pronouncements about what the ChristianTM position is. Given the lack of pushback on them, it’s not surprising that a lot of casual media viewers would take them at their word. Admittedly, Catholic representatives are poorly positioned to administer such pushback because of historic Catholic/Protestant secretarianism. The task should really be done by Mainline Protestants. Pushback exists: I’ve been convinced of that by a past SDMB pit thread. But it’s weak and mostly (not entirely) ineffectual. Maybe we’ll see more of it moving forwards though. Check out the chart here: Evangelicals are in decline, while Mainline Christians are recovering: [White Evangelical Churches Continue to Lose Members – Kevin Drum](https://jabberwocking.com/white-evangelicals-continue-to-lose-members/) [![](https://jabberwocking.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/blog_white_protestant_church.jpg) ](https://jabberwocking.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/blog_white_protestant_church.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943/120 "2021-07-10T01:13:04Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > You will occasionally meet people who consider themselves “Jewish Buddhists” which is just as theologically incoherent as Messianic Judaism, but isn’t going to set off any big emotional reactions because Buddhism isn’t the religion that’s been oppressing and killing Jews for 1800 years. Since Buddhism has a strong philosophical foundation, there are [secular Buddhists](https://secularbuddhism.com/) and [Christian Buddhists](https://www.ncronline.org/news/double-belonging-buddhism-and-christian-faith) as well. Indeed, Buddhism’s modus operandi is to append itself to the existing religious belief system (as in eg Japan). I understand that Buddhist priests will often handle funerals while leaving weddings to the other crew. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dark-sponge-knows-the-secrets-of-judaism/945943.md?page=7)