# Darth Vader vs Gandalf **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 19, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508 "2014-04-19T21:08:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/41 "2014-04-21T16:44:28Z")
> [@blue\_infinity](#): > > No. Tolkien’s ‘angels’ aren’t invincible. They can’t be permanently killed, but they can be defeated. > > Balrogs have been taken down. Sauron was beaten in a fight. Fingolfin was able to bleed Morgoth himself, before getting stomped. All of which were part of the rebellion against Illuvatar. Assuming Gandalf doesn’t rebel (which seems a pretty safe bet), he wins. It may take time, his body may be destroyed once or twice, but he’s a freaking Maia, a servant of the being that created… well… everything, and Illuvatar doesn’t _do_ ‘losing’. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/42 "2014-04-21T21:10:55Z")
I think it depends on what kind of “fight” you’re talking about. If it’s hand-to-hand (or lightsaber to elven sword) combat, Vader has much more energy and weaponry. Vader is a warrior, and a servant. But if it’s a long-haul strategy, Gandalf inspires all the little dudes to help him (note how even Ewoks can defeat most Imperial weaponry) and outwits Vader. Gandalf isn’t a warrior, he’s a captain and strategist. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/43 "2014-04-21T21:21:02Z")
I think Gandalf would don the ring and kick Vader’s ass. Then there would _really_ be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/44 "2014-04-21T23:21:32Z")
Guys, we don’t even know if Vader can run. Gandalf DoTs him to death. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/45 "2014-04-22T14:42:46Z")
I’m not sure how much use the Force can be against someone who participated in the Song of Creation and presumably has the Force running through every strand of his being. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/46 "2014-05-02T17:23:42Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Dude, Gandalf is the equivalent of a _freakin’_ angel. If given full release to apply his powers without restraint, the fight’s over before it even begins. I thought that Gandalf’s order was not fully explained, even in the Silmarillion. Probably a Maia, maybe not a very strong one, IIRC. On the other hand, being able to beat a balrog in a fair fight puts him near the top of any sub-Valar scale. I think he would just pull out his alter-ego Magneto powers, and win in a walk. 😃 cite: [Ian McKellen on screen and stage - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_McKellen_filmography) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/47 "2014-05-02T17:55:29Z")
As I understand it, the Maiar are specifically forbidden from manifesting their full power in the affairs of Middle Earth - they’re meant to advise mortals, not fight their battles for them. So we only see a barest hint of how powerful Gandalf really is. Vader, however, is not from Middle Earth. As an invader from an alternate narrative, his meddling would be just as destructive to Iluvatar’s plan for Middle Earth as an unfettered Maiar running around. So I can see him saying to Gandalf, “For this guy? Go all out.” And Vader ends up as a pillar of salt, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/48 "2014-05-02T18:41:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Vader, however, is not from Middle Earth. As an invader from an alternate narrative, his meddling would be just as destructive to Iluvatar’s plan for Middle Earth as an unfettered Maiar running around. So I can see him saying to Gandalf, “For this guy? Go all out.” And Vader ends up as a pillar of salt, or something. However, if the smackdown occurs in a galaxy far, far away, Gandalf may have nothing to draw upon. If it happens here, neither may have special powers. Vader has better tech. If Gandalf can manage to outlast Vader’s batteries, he would have the opportunity to exercise his vaunted mercy. Unfortunately, for Gandalf, I’m guessing that since in his childhood Vader built robots and pod-racers as after-slave projects, he could probably tool up a serviciable power source even using our mundane tech. BTW, what does “Vader” even mean? Does it even mean anything? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/49 "2014-05-02T18:45:59Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > However, if the smackdown occurs in a galaxy far, far away, Gandalf may have nothing to draw upon. That may work both ways, though. If Iluvatar has no power in the Star Wars 'verse, it seems logical that the Force would have no power in Middle Earth. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/50 "2014-05-02T18:52:01Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > This fight entirely depends on how much the combatants know about each other prior to combat. If Vader lets Gandalf start some incantations, he could be in serious trouble; force-choke right away. If Gandalf knows what kinds of things Vader could use the Force for, he could find a way to circumvent them; illusions and so forth. My impression of Gandalf is that he was far more powerful than anyone realized during the whole Hobbit/Lord of the Rings thing, but that he held back from just dominating everything because his purpose was to help the lowly rise to the top. I don’t see a whole lot of stuff from the force other than a Spider-sense and some **TK** , maybe a little enhanced empathic ability, etc. Could Vader defeat a Balrog? Maybe. But then again, if Gandalf lived in a world where the Force was a real thing, don’t you think he’d know about it, and probably know how to use it as well? I’m generally pretty good at figuring abbreviations/acronyms out but “TK” has stumped me since I first saw it in a HULK magazine 20-odd years ago. Can someone help me out? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/51 "2014-05-02T18:54:31Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > I’m generally pretty good at figuring abbreviations/acronyms out but “TK” has stumped me since I first saw it in a HULK magazine 20-odd years ago. Can someone help me out? It’s short for “telekinesis.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/52 "2014-05-02T19:54:35Z")
Gandalf is explicitly stated to be a Maia. At one point in the trilogy, he says “Olorin I was called in my youth in the West”, and the _Silmarillion_ lists Olorin as the wisest of all the Maiar. There’s also more detailed info in _Unfinished Tales_, though one can debate how canonical that is. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/53 "2014-05-02T20:52:21Z")
nemmind ---
**Author:** ![ruh-roh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ruh-roh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruh-roh)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/54 "2014-05-03T01:51:58Z")
It seems to me the video has some of the dialog incorrect. After Gandalf proclaims “You shall not pass”, no matter water Darth replies, his next line should be “What is your favorite color”. And after Gandalf slices off Vader’s hand the dialog is supposed to be… Gandalf: Now stand aside, worthy adversary. Vader: 'Tis but a scratch. Gandalf: A scratch? Your arm’s off. Vader: No it isn’t. Gandalf: What’s that, then? Vader: [after a pause] I’ve had worse. Gandalf: You liar. Vader: Come on ya pansy. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/55 "2014-05-03T03:03:33Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > However, if the smackdown occurs in a galaxy far, far away, Gandalf may have nothing to draw upon. > > If it happens here, neither may have special powers. Vader has better tech. If Gandalf can manage to outlast Vader’s batteries, he would have the opportunity to exercise his vaunted mercy. Unfortunately, for Gandalf, I’m guessing that since in his childhood Vader built robots and pod-racers as after-slave projects, he could probably tool up a serviciable power source even using our mundane tech. > > BTW, what does “Vader” even mean? Does it even mean anything? German for ‘father’ ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/56 "2014-05-03T04:02:12Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > German for ‘father’ Dutch. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/57 "2014-05-03T11:37:02Z")
Vadar would win in a direct confrontation but Gandalf would avoid this and if he could not avoid it he would come back. In both cases he would guide those needed to take down Vadar and the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508/58 "2014-05-03T15:57:17Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > In both cases he would guide those needed to take down Vadar and the Empire. Gandalf overthrows the Empire? I guess that explains the Ewoks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-gandalf/686508.md?page=2)