# Darth Vader vs Victor Von Doom--for all the marbles **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 3, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830 "2009-07-03T17:24:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/41 "2009-07-07T23:28:09Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > You left out a big pile of others: That’s because I’m really lazy. Also I figured one of youse guys would come along to correct me. 'Sides, my point including the former Mr. Mary Jane Watson was to observe that there’s a lot of variance. Also note that some of the characters you name are very limited, though perhaps tops in their field. Reed Richards has said explictly that Otto Octavious knows more about treating radiation poisoning than he does, but I’d not put Otto on the same level as RR, VvD, and TS. I’m not aware that Banner’s done much outside of weapons. And why in the name of Hera daughter of Rhea did you include the Red Skull? ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/42 "2009-07-07T23:58:40Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Actually, I was thinking of an Electric Company comic where Dr. Doom takes the United Nations hostage by putting a forcefield around the building, and Spider-Man ends up defeating him (because Peter Parker happened to be taking a tour of the UN Building at the time). I’m not the OP but I’m fairly sure that the Electric Company’s Spider-Man skits aren’t canon. Though I’ll admit as a kid, I liked watching them. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/43 "2009-07-08T00:03:53Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > I’m not the OP but I’m fairly sure that the Electric Company’s Spider-Man skits aren’t canon. > > Though I’ll admit as a kid, I liked watching them. Not the skits. They had [their own comic](http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/Vigoda/spideysuperstories1.jpg?t=1247011365). ---
**Author:** ![granzagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cc9497/32.png) [@granzagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/granzagirl)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/44 "2009-07-08T00:08:15Z")
In the Star Wars extended universe, there frequently arose the issue of “witches” who were simply well versed in the ways of the Force but claimed they were using magic. In the same way, we could state that sorcery is part of the Force and that the Force is a part of sorcery. If Vader and Doom were on the same level playing field in terms of “mythical powers,” Doom would have the definitive edge, having the advantage of technology on his side. Also, first post I’m awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/45 "2009-07-08T00:49:36Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Not the skits. They had [their own comic](http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/Vigoda/spideysuperstories1.jpg?t=1247011365). I’m aware of that. They were not considered part of the regular MU, like the skits. Since they were made for kids I don’t think Spider-Man beating on Doom in them counts in the theme of this thread. Its not like Spidey was going to lose a fight with Doom to teach children how to spell in a magazine made for children. So other than that, I don’t htink Spidey has EVER beaten Doom. Thats like having Daredevil beat Thanos. It just doesn’t fit with the characters. (Spider-Man really shouldn’t be fighting guys like Doom anyway…at least not oustside of magazines or skits made for children IMHO) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/46 "2009-07-08T00:50:06Z")
[quote=“SmashTheState, post:39, topic:501830”] Johann Schmidt (Red Skull) QUOTE] No. The Skull is evil, but no genius. He hires others to do the science stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/47 "2009-07-21T13:18:21Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Wait, when did Dr. Doom become magic? Wasn’t he just a evil genius/mad scientist with a knack for making robot look-alikes? IIRC, Astonishing Tales #8, circa 1972. Before that, there were hints that Doom was into magic (hell, his origin talked about forbidden rituals or similar) but Astonishing Tales #8 (with absolutely beautiful Gene Colan art) featured the whole revised backstory with Cynthia Von Doom a gypsy-witch into demonology, set up the whole “Mephisto” thing, etc [You can read it here](http://therainer.blogspot.com/2008/05/though-some-call-it-magic-doom-tales.html) ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/48 "2009-07-21T13:54:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think you got your number 1 & number 2 mixed up. I can’t think of anything Richards has done that Doom could not do (other than maintain a reasonably healthy family relationship), whereas Doom mastered the mystic arts in a way that Richards seems unable to. No, Reed’s smarter than Doom. Unquestionably. Otherwise, it fouls up Doom’s entire character and motivation. If Doom were actually more intelligent than Reed, Doom would have won, because Doom DOES have superior power. But Doom merely believes himself the superior intellect, then consistently loses. He’s the Salieri to Reed’s Mozart. ---
**Author:** ![Mooch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mooch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mooch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/49 "2009-07-21T15:20:07Z")
How does King Geedorah figure into all of this? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/50 "2009-07-21T17:17:25Z")
Any stinking mortal who does not believe that Doom would destroy Darth Vader like the LA Lakers would demolish a high school team should be immediately converted into a suppository for a chthonic being. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/51 "2009-07-21T17:39:23Z")
As much as I like Vader… Doom, and he’d probably find a way to steal Vader’s Midichlorians and then make them increase ten-thousand fold in his own body about half-way through the battle. I suppose Vader could win by, I dunno, using the force to surreptitiously erase the regulator piece on the schematic for his new equipment causing it to eat the user when turned on, but I think Doom would notice the error and correct it. It’s not even fair, really. For Doom you’d have to move up about six tiers to the “I could destroy a solar system by blinking” level… which pretty much limits you to other comic books (and Manga/Anime, in fact, “Majin Vegeta” or “Kid Buu” were my first thoughts of a roughly even match up there). ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/52 "2009-07-22T01:03:08Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Quibble: This one might not be as clear-cut. Something about being The Thing makes Ben (who doesn’t get this way when he’s not orange and rocky) especially susceptible to mind control. I can count dozens of times where Ben was mind-controlled into attacking the other members. Mind-control is kind of his kryptonite. That said, he’s not “weak willed” even remotely, so he might be able to resist since we know that’s how the Jedi mind trick works. It’s just not as clear-cut as it would otherwise seem. Ben and mind control is kind of inconsistent. He’s easy to deceive, but he has amazing willpower. You could Jedi Mind Trick him into thinking you were not there, but not into harming someone he cares about. We are talking about the guy who’s “too dumb and too ugly to die” here. And whose only real fear is losing Alicia (as we know from an issue of Man-Thing, where Ben wanders the swamp in a daze, but only triggers the “whatever knows fear, burns at the touch of the MAN-THING” power when he fever-dreams he might lose Alicia). ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/53 "2009-07-22T01:49:45Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > It’s not even fair, really. For Doom you’d have to move up about six tiers to the “I could destroy a solar system by blinking” level… which pretty much limits you to other comic books (and Manga/Anime, in fact, “Majin Vegeta” or “Kid Buu” were my first thoughts of a roughly even match up there). I can think of any number of people who would make mincemeat of Doom who don’t have even Willy Lumpkin ear-wiggling levels of power. All it takes is someone cunning enough to take advantage of Doom’s galaxy-sized Achilles heel, his arrogance, and beat him by turning his own power against him. A short list of people who’d mop the floor with Doom: The Doctor Batman Parker Lewis Ozymandias The Shadow Hercule Poirot Nero Wolfe Danny Ocean Keyser Soze ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/54 "2009-07-22T03:36:35Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > Ben and mind control is kind of inconsistent. He’s easy to deceive, but he has amazing willpower. You could Jedi Mind Trick him into thinking you were not there, but not into harming someone he cares about. We are talking about the guy who’s “too dumb and too ugly to die” here. You do realize that Ben is only dumb by comparison to Reed. He _does_ have a college degree, and was an air force test pilot. Further, he roomed with Reed and they became good friends. Which tends to imply a certain amount of meeting of the minds. Just because he’s got this ‘aw shucks’ kind of attitude doesn’t mean he’s stupid. He just doesn’t think the same way Reed does. He’s probably somewhere in the IQ 140-160 range, if I had to guess. He’s _really_ good at figuring things out. (Think of it this way: He’s at least as smart as any of the astronauts. Possibly smarter: he can fly the weird stuff Reed thinks up better than Reed can.) ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/55 "2009-07-22T11:37:26Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > You do realize that Ben is only dumb by comparison to Reed. He _does_ have a college degree, and was an air force test pilot. Further, he roomed with Reed and they became good friends. Which tends to imply a certain amount of meeting of the minds. Just because he’s got this ‘aw shucks’ kind of attitude doesn’t mean he’s stupid. He just doesn’t think the same way Reed does. He’s probably somewhere in the IQ 140-160 range, if I had to guess. He’s _really_ good at figuring things out. > > (Think of it this way: He’s at least as smart as any of the astronauts. Possibly smarter: he can fly the weird stuff Reed thinks up better than Reed can.) True, and in early issues of Fantastic Four Ben did speak in the “Aw shucks/I ain’t doin’ that/Its Clobberin’ Time” manner. He had a very formal manner of speech which suggests that he is very intelligent. I would go as far as to say that Ben probably has a doctorate himself, or at least a masters degree. Air Force Pilots, especially test pilots are highly educated. Did they ever say what rank Ben held in the Air Force? (I always thought he was a marine test pilot, but hey, I have no cite or reason to say which branch he was in). He must have been an officer just to be a pilot and officers are required to have a degree. (at least it is that way in the army) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/56 "2009-07-22T13:28:47Z")
As of Captain Savage and his Leatherneck Raiders #7 (Mid-WWII), Ben was a Lt, USAF. Post-war, he _was_ a NASA astronaut. I’d guess he was a Captain by that point, but I can’t find any specific reference at all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/57 "2009-07-22T19:42:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Stark – 70 (probablya better engineer than the first two, but lacking their skill in life sciences, not responsible for any theoretical breakthroughs, and hopeless in magic) > Pym – 70 (the most skilled in this group in life sciences, responsible for at least one theoretical physics breakthrough, but not as good an engineer as the first three) Slight hijack, but Stark has made it his life’s work to put the best armor plate he can on a powered exoskeleton bristling with futuristic weaponry; Pym, by comparison, spent maybe three days in his basement slapping together a robot that beat the crap out of Iron Man with one hand figuratively behind its back – by which I mean its literal other hand was in fact beating the crap out of Thor right about then. So, what happens if Pym’s best engineering project goes up against Stark’s best engineering project? We’ve seen the results, and it wasn’t pretty. In any event, Doom’s ego may get the better of him when he’s squaring off against one superhero or another – but IMHO (a) that’s Vader’s only shot, and (b) it’s not going to be in play for the OP’s scenario: if all the Doom-bots are already down, Doom is going to take this guy off life support in a hurry. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/58 "2009-07-22T21:25:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Slight hijack, but Stark has made it his life’s work to put the best armor plate he can on a powered exoskeleton bristling with futuristic weaponry; Pym, by comparison, spent maybe three days in his basement slapping together a robot that beat the crap out of Iron Man with one hand figuratively behind its back – by which I mean its literal other hand was in fact beating the crap out of Thor right about then. So, what happens if Pym’s best engineering project goes up against Stark’s best engineering project? We’ve seen the results, and it wasn’t pretty. Even though the post you responded to was written in support of Pym, I can’t entirely agree. Ultron only began as Pym’s tech; he (it?) has done a lot of upgrades. What Pym did was accidentally create a sentient being. But since the “engrams” (snerk) upon which Ultron is based are Pym’s, Janet’s ex\* still gets partial credit for everything he’s done. \*Yes, **ex**. Jan is not dead, damn it! She’s too prettyto die. (sob) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/59 "2009-07-22T21:54:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Even though the post you responded to was written in support of Pym, I can’t entirely agree. Ultron only began as Pym’s tech; he (it?) has done a lot of upgrades. What Pym did was accidentally create a sentient being. I wasn’t referring to Ultron, but to SALVATION-1. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830/60 "2009-07-22T23:52:45Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > I can think of any number of people who would make mincemeat of Doom who don’t have even Willy Lumpkin ear-wiggling levels of power. All it takes is someone cunning enough to take advantage of Doom’s galaxy-sized Achilles heel, his arrogance, and beat him by turning his own power against him. A short list of people who’d mop the floor with Doom: > > The Doctor > Batman > Parker Lewis > Ozymandias > The Shadow > Hercule Poirot > Nero Wolfe > Danny Ocean > Keyser Soze Fair point, but I have to submit that Batman does not count because he probably has a plan ready to be executed at any moment that would result in an instantaneous solar system erasing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darth-vader-vs-victor-von-doom-for-all-the-marbles/501830.md?page=4)