# Darwinism Extinct **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968 "2003-06-28T13:15:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Moti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@Moti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moti)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/1 "2003-06-28T13:15:35Z")
Hello, my name is Moti, it’s great to visit your forum. The following is a sample of a brilliant critique of the dominant policies, theories and presuppositions of modern science and scientists by the world-famous saint, cultural ambassador, scholar and social reformer His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I’m posting it for general discussion. Darwinism Extinct Dr. Singh. Darwin has said that some species become extinct in the struggle for survival. Those which are capable of surviving will survive, but those which are not will become extinct. So he says survival and extinction go side by side. Srila Prabhupada. Nothing is extinct. The monkey is not extinct. Darwin’s immediate forefather, the monkey, is still existing. Karandhara. Darwin said there must be a natural selection. But selection means choice. So who is choosing? Srila Prabhupada. That must be a person. Who is allowing someone to survive and someone to be killed? There must be some authority with discretion to give such an order. That is our first proposition. Who that authority is, is explained in Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, mayadhyaksena prakrtih: “Nature is working under My supervision.” (Bg. 9.10) Dr. Singh. Darwin also says that the different species were not created simultaneously, but evolved gradually. Srila Prabhupada. Then what is his explanation for how the process of evolution began? Karandhara. Modern proponents of Darwinism say that the first living organism was created chemically. Srila Prabhupada. And I say to them, “If life originated from chemicals, and if your science is so advanced, then why can’t you create life biochemically in your laboratories?” ``` In the Future ``` Karandhara. They say they will create life in the future. Srila Prabhupada. What future? When this crucial point is raised, they reply, “We shall do it in the future.” Why in the future? That is nonsense. “Trust no future, however pleasant.” If they are so advanced, they must demonstrate now how life can be created from chemicals. Otherwise what is the meaning of their advancement? They are talking nonsense. Karandhara. They say that they are right on the verge of creating life. Srila Prabhupada. That’s only a different way of saying the same thing: “In the future.” The scientists must admit that they still do not know the origin of life. Their claim that they will soon prove a chemical origin of life is something like paying someone with a postdated check. Suppose I give you a postdated check for ten thousand dollars but I actually have no money. What is the value of that check? Scientists are claiming that their science is wonderful, but when a practical example is wanted, they say they will provide it in the future. Suppose I say that I possess millions of dollars, and when you ask me for some money I say, “Yes, I will now give you a big postdated check. Is that all right?” If you are intelligent, you will reply, “At present give me at least five dollars in cash so I can see something tangible.” Similarly, the scientists cannot produce even a single blade of grass in their laboratories, yet they are claiming that life is produced from chemicals. What is this nonsense? Is no one questioning this? Karandhara. They say that life is produced by chemical laws. Srila Prabhupada. As soon as there is a law, we must take into consideration that someone made the law. Despite all their so-called advancement, the scientists in their laboratories cannot produce even a blade of grass. What kind of scientists are they? Dr. Singh. They say that in the ultimate analysis, everything came from matter. Living matter came from nonliving matter. Srila Prabhupada. Then where is this living matter coming from now? Do the scientists say that life came from matter in the past but does not at the present? Where is the ant coming from now–from the dirt? ``` The Missing Link ``` Dr. Singh. in fact, there are several theories explaining how life originated from matter, how living matter came from the nonliving. Srila Prabhupada. [casting Dr. Singh in the role of a materialistic scientist]. All right, scientist, why is life not coming from matter now? You rascal. Why isn’t life coming from matter now? Actually such scientists are rascals. They childishly say that life came from matter, although they are not at all able to prove it. Our Krsna consciousness movement should expose all these rascals. They are only bluffing. Why don’t they create life immediately? In the past, they say, life arose from matter; and they say that this will happen again in the future. They even say that they will create life from matter. What kind of theory is this? They have already commented that life began from matter. This refers to the past–“began.” Then why do they now speak of the future? Is it not contradictory? They are expecting the past to occur in the future. This is childish nonsense. Karandhara. They say that life arose from matter in the past and that they will create life this way in the future. Srila Prabhupada. What is this nonsense? If they cannot prove that life arises from matter in the present, how do they know life arose this way in the past? Dr. Singh. They are assuming… Srila Prabhupada. Everyone can assume, but this is not science. Everyone can assume something. You can assume something, I can assume something. But there must be proof. We can prove that life arises from life. For example, a father begets a child. The father is living, and the child is living. But where is their proof that a father can be a dead stone? Where is their proof? We can easily prove that life begins from life. And the original life is Krsna. That also can be proven. But what evidence exists that a child is born of stone? They cannot actually prove that life comes from matter. They are leaving that aside for the future. [Laughter.] Karandhara. The scientists say that they can now formulate acids, amino acids, that are almost like one-celled living organisms. They say that because these acids so closely resemble living beings, there must be just one missing link needed before they can create life. Srila Prabhupada. Nonsense! Missing link. I’ll challenge them to their face! [Laughter.] They are missing this challenge. The missing link is this challenge to their face. ``` Nobel Prize for an Ass ``` Dr. Singh. Some scientists hope that in the future they will be able to make babies in test tubes. Srila Prabhupada. Test tubes? Dr. Singh. Yes, they intend to combine male and female elements in biological laboratories. Srila Prabhupada. If they begin with living entities, what is the purpose of the test tube? It is only a place for combination, but so is the womb. Where is the credit for the scientists if this is already being done in nature’s test tube? Karandhara. It is already being done by nature, but when some scientist does it, people will give him the Nobel Prize. Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam: sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh.[4] This verse indicates that those who praise men who are like animals are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Sva means “dog,” vid-varaha means “stool-eating hog,” ustra means “camel,” and khara means “ass.” If the Nobel Prize is given to a scientist who is a rascal, the men on the committee who give him that prize are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. We don’t accept them as human beings. One animal is praised by another animal. Where is the credit in that? If the men on the committee are no better than animals, anyone who receives the Nobel Prize in science is fool number one, because animals are praising him, not human beings. Dr. Singh. For some scientists, the Nobel Prize is the ultimate. Srila Prabhupada. They are rascals. They are speaking nonsense, and because they are juggling words, others are being misled. Brahmananda Swami. Nobel is the person who invented dynamite. Srila Prabhupada. He has created great misfortune, and he has left his money for creating further misfortune. [Laughter.] Brahmananda Swami. The Gita says that demoniac people perform acts meant to destroy the world. Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Ugra-karmanah ksayaya jagato 'hitah (Bg. 16.9). They perform acts meant for inauspiciousness and the destruction of the world. ``` The Difference Between the Living and the Nonliving ``` [Srila Prabhupada points at a dead tree with his cane.] Srila Prabhupada. Formerly leaves and twigs were growing from this tree. Now they are not. How would the scientists explain this? Karandhara. They would say the tree’s chemical composition has changed. Srila Prabhupada. To prove that theory, they must be able to inject the proper chemicals to make branches and leaves grow again. The scientific method includes observation, hypothesis and then demonstration. Then it is perfect. But the scientists cannot actually demonstrate in their laboratories that life comes from matter. They simply observe and then speak nonsense. They are like children. In our childhood, we observed a gramophone box and thought that within the box was a man singing, an electric man. We thought there must have been an electric man or some kind of ghost in it. [Laughter.] Dr. Singh. One of the popular questions that arises when we start studying biology is “What is the difference between a living organism and that which is not living?” The textbooks say that the chief characteristics that distinguish the two are that a living being can move and reproduce, whereas dead matter can do neither. But the books never talk about the nature of the soul or about the consciousness of the living entity. Srila Prabhupada. But consciousness is the primary indication that life is present. Only because of consciousness can a living being move and reproduce. Because a person is conscious, he thinks of marrying, and begetting children. And the original consciousness is described in the Vedas: tad aiksata bahu syam (Chandogya Upanisad 6.2.3). This means that God, the original conscious being, said, “I shall become many.” Without consciousness, there is no possibility of by-products. ``` The Individual Living Force ``` Srila Prabhupada. The gardeners supply water to the green trees, so why don’t they supply water to this dead tree and make it green? Dr. Singh. From experience they know that it will not grow. Srila Prabhupada. Then what is the element that is lacking? Scientists say that chemicals are the cause of life, but all the chemicals that were present when the tree was alive are still there. And these chemicals are still supporting the lives of many living entities such as microbes and insects. So they cannot say that life energy is lacking in the body of the tree. The life energy is there. Dr. Singh. But what about the life energy of the tree itself? Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is the difference. The living force is individual, and the particular individual living entity that was the tree has left. This must be the case, since all the chemicals necessary to support life are still there, yet the tree is dead. Here is another example. Suppose I am living in an apartment, and then I leave it. I am gone, but many other living entities remain there–ants, spiders and so forth. So it is not true that simply because I have left the apartment, it can no longer accommodate life. Other living entities are still living there. It is simply that I–an individual living being–have left. The chemicals in the tree are like the apartment: they are simply the environment for the individual force–the soul–to act through. And the soul is an individual. I am an individual, and therefore I may leave the apartment. Similarly, the microbes are also individuals; they have individual consciousness. If they are moving in one direction but are somehow blocked, they think, “Let me go the other way.” They have personality. Karandhara. But in a dead body there is no personality. Srila Prabhupada. This indicates that the individual soul has left that body. The soul has left, and therefore the tree does not grow. ``` Minimum Words, Maximum Solution ``` Srila Prabhupada. The individual soul is never lost. He does not die, nor is he born. He simply changes from one body to another, just as one changes garments. This is perfect science. Dr. Singh. But why don’t scientists accept this? Srila Prabhupada. They are not nice men. They are rascals. They are not even gentlemen. Under appropriate circumstances, gentlemen will have some shyness or some shame. But these men are shameless. They cannot properly answer our challenges, yet they shamelessly claim that they are scientists and that they will create life. They are not even gentlemen. At least I regard them like that. A gentleman will be ashamed to speak nonsense. Dr. Singh. They do not think before they speak. Srila Prabhupada. That means that they are not human beings. A human being thinks twice before saying anything. Krsna makes the presence of life within the body so easy to understand. He says: ``` dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati ``` [“As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.” (Bg. 2.13)] In these two lines, Krsna solves the whole biological problem. That is knowledge. Minimum words, maximum solution. Volumes of books expounding nonsense have no meaning. Materialistic scientists are like croaking frogs: ka-ka-ka, ka-ka-ka. [Srila Prabhupada imitates the sound of a croaking frog, and the others laugh.] The frogs are thinking, “Oh, we are talking very nicely,” but the result is that the snake finds them and says, “Oh, here is a nice frog!” [Srila Prabhupada imitates the sound of a snake eating a frog.] Bup! Finished. When death comes, everything is finished. The materialistic scientists are croaking–ka-ka-ka–but when death comes, their scientific industry is finished, and they become dogs, cats or something like that. [Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh, Karandhara dasa adhikari, Brahmananda Svami and other students. Recorded on April 19, 1973, in Cheviot Hills Park, Los Angeles] THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT TORTURED AND POISONED TO DEATH BY HIS JUDAS DISCIPLES (Leaders of a Sinister Movement) [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/sp\_poisoned/sp\_poisoned.htm](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/sp_poisoned/sp_poisoned.htm) or [http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp\_poisoned/sp\_poisoned.htm](http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp_poisoned/sp_poisoned.htm) Web Sites: PRABHUPADA Your ever well wisher [www.prabhupada.org.uk](http://www.prabhupada.org.uk) or [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/) KRISHNA BHAKTIVEDANTA WHOLLY COW PROTECTION SOCIETY [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada108/](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada108/) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/2 "2003-06-28T13:24:09Z")
Where’s the debate? Prabhupada doesn’t understand evoltution or evolutionary processes, and his “no animal has ever gone extinct” statement is pretty bizzare. ---
**Author:** ![Moti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@Moti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moti)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/3 "2003-06-28T13:28:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Where’s the debate? Prabhupada doesn’t understand evoltution or evolutionary processes, and his “no animal has ever gone extinct” statement is pretty bizzare. \*\* Devotee: But Darwin says there are many species, like dinosaurs, that are seen to be extinct. Srila Prabhupada: What has he seen? He is not so powerful that he can see everywhere or everything. His power to see is limited, and by that limited power he cannot conclude that one species is extinct. That is not possible. No scientist will accept that. After all, all the senses by which you gather knowledge are limited, so how can you say this is finished or that is extinct? You cannot see. You cannot search out. The earth’s circumference is twenty-five thousand miles; have you searched through all the layers of rock and soil over the whole earth? Have you excavated all those places? Devotee: No. Srila Prabhupada: Therefore our first charge against Darwin is this: He says there were no human beings millions of years ago. That is not a fact. We now see human beings existing along with all other species, and it should be concluded that this situation always existed. Human life has always been there. Darwin cannot say there was no human life. Devotee: We don’t see any dinosaurs existing. Srila Prabhupada: You do not see because you have no power to see. Your senses are very limited, so what you see or don’t see cannot be authoritative. So many people–the majority of people–say, “I don’t see God.” Shall we accept, then, that there is no God? Are we crazy for being devotees of God? Devotee: No, but dinosaurs– Srila Prabhupada: But simply by dinosaurs being missing you cannot make your case. What about all the other species? Devotee: Many, many others are also extinct. Srila Prabhupada: Say I accept that many are extinct–because the evolutionary process means that as an earlier species gradually changes into a later species, the earlier vanishes, becomes extinct. But we see that many monkeys are still here. Man evolved from the simians, but simians have not disappeared. Monkeys are here, and men are here. Devotee: But still I’m not convinced. If we make geological investigations all over the world, not just here and there, but in many parts of the world, and in every case we find the same thing– Srila Prabhupada: But I say you have not studied all over the world. Has Darwin studied all the continents on this planet? Has he gone down into the depths of the seas and there excavated all the layers of the earth? No. So his knowledge is imperfect. This is the relative world, and here everyone speaks with relative knowledge. Therefore we should accept knowledge from a person who is not within this relativity. Devotee: Actually, Darwin hit upon his theory because of what he observed on his voyage in 1835 to the Galapagos Islands, off the coast of South America. He found there species that exist nowhere else. Srila Prabhupada: That means he has not seen all the species. He has not traveled all over the universe. He has seen one island, but he has not seen the whole creation. So how can he determine what species exist and don’t exist? He has studied one part of this earth, but there are many millions of planets. He has not seen all of them; he has not excavated the depths of all the planets. So how can he conclude, “This is nature”? He has not seen everything, nor is it possible for any human being to see everything. Devotee: Let’s just confine ourselves to this planet. Srila Prabhupada: No, why should we? Nature is not only on this planet. Devotee: Because you said that on this planet there were complex forms of living beings millions and millions of years ago. Srila Prabhupada: We are not talking about this planet, but about anywhere. You are referring to nature. Nature is not limited or confined to this planet. You cannot say that. Nature, material nature, includes millions of universes, and in each and every universe there are millions of planets. If you have studied only this planet, your knowledge is insufficient. Devotee: But you said before that millions of years ago on this planet there were horses, elephants, civilized men– Srila Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Devotee: But from hundreds of different sources there is no evidence. Srila Prabhupada: I say they are existing now–men, horses, snakes, insects, trees. So why not millions of years ago? Devotee: Because there is no evidence. Srila Prabhupada: That doesn’t mean… ! You limit your study to one planet. That is not full knowledge. Devotee: I just want to find out for the time being about– Srila Prabhupada: Why the time being? If you are not perfect in your knowledge, then why should I accept your theory? That is my point. Devotee: Well, if you claim that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet– Srila Prabhupada: Whether on this planet or on another planet, that is not the point. The point is that all species exist and keep on existing by the arrangement of nature. We learn from the Vedic texts that there are 8,400,000 species established. They may be in your neighborhood or they may be in my neighborhood–the number and types are fixed. But if you simply study your neighborhood, it is not perfect knowledge. Evolution we admit. But your evolutionary theory is not perfect. Our theory of evolution is perfect. From the Vedas we know that there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies provided by nature, but the soul is the same in all, in spite of the different types of body. There is no change in the soul, and therefore the Bhagavad-gita (5.18) says that one who is wise, a pandita, does not see the species or the class; he sees oneness, equality. Panditah sama-darsinah. One who sees to the bottom sees the soul, and he does not find there any difference between all these species. Devotee: So Darwin and other material scientists who have no information about the soul– Srila Prabhupada: They’re missing the whole point. Devotee: They say that all living things tend to evolve from lower to higher. In the history of the earth– Srila Prabhupada: That may be accepted. For example, in an apartment building there are different kinds of apartments: first-class apartments, second-class apartments, third-class apartments. According to your desire and qualification, as you are fit to pay the rent, you are allowed to move up to the better apartments. But the different apartments are already there. They are not evolving. The residents are evolving by moving to new apartment s as they desire. Devotee: As they desire. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. According to our mentality at the time of death, we get another “apartment,” another body. But the “apartment” is already there, not that I’m creating the “apartment.” And the classes of “apartments” are fixed at 8,400,000. Just like the hotel-keeper: he has experience of his customers coming and wanting different kinds of facilities. So he has made all sorts of accommodations to oblige all kinds of customers. Similarly, this is God’s creation. He knows how far a living entity can think, so He has made all these different species accordingly. When God thinks, “Come on, come here,” nature obliges. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani (Bhagavad-gita 3.27): Nature is offering facility. God, Krsna, is sitting in the heart of the living entity as Paramatma, and He knows, “He wants this.” So the Lord orders nature, “Give him this apartment,” and nature obliges: “Yes, come on; here is your apartment.” This is the real explanation. Devotee: I understand and accept that. But I’m still puzzled as to why there is no geological evidence that in former times on this planet there were more complex forms. Srila Prabhupada: Why are you taking geological evidence as final? Is it final? Science is progressing. You cannot say it is final. Devotee: But I have excavated all parts of the world, and every time– Srila Prabhupada: No. You have not excavated all parts of the world. Devotee: Well, on seven continents. Srila Prabhupada: Seven continents is not the whole world. You say you have excavated the whole world, but we say no, not even an insignificant portion. So your knowledge is limited. Dr. Frog has examined his three-foot-wide well, and now he claims to know the ocean. Experimental knowledge is always imperfect, because one experiments with imperfect senses. Therefore, scientific knowledge must be imperfect. Our source of knowledge is different. We do not depend on experimental knowledge. Now you see no dinosaurs, nor have I seen all the 8,400,000 different forms of life. But my source of knowledge is different. You are an experimenter with imperfect senses. I have taken knowledge from the perfect person, who has seen everything, who knows everything. Therefore, my knowledge is perfect. Say, for example, that I receive knowledge from my mother: “Here is your father.” But you are trying to search out your father on your own. You don’t go to your mother and ask; you just search and search. Therefore, no matter how much you search, your knowledge will always remain imperfect. Devotee: And your knowledge says that millions of years ago there were higher forms of life on this planet. Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes, because our Vedic information is that the first created being is the most intelligent, the most intellectual person within the universe–Lord Brahma, the cosmic engineer. So how can we accept your theory that intellect develops by evolution? We have received our Vedic knowledge from Brahma, who is so perfect. Dr. Frog has studied his three-foot well, his little reservoir of water. The Atlantic Ocean is also a reservoir of water, but there is a vast difference. Dr. Frog cannot inform us about the Atlantic Ocean. But we take knowledge from the one who has made the Atlantic Ocean. So our knowledge is perfect. Devotee: But wouldn’t there be evidence in the earth, some remains? Srila Prabhupada: Our evidence is intelligence, not stones and bones. Our evidence is intelligence. We get Vedic information by disciplic succession from the most intelligent. It is coming down by sruti, hearing. Vyasadeva heard from Narada, Narada heard from Brahma–millions and millions of years ago. Millions and millions of our years pass, and it is not even one day for Brahma. So millions and billions and trillions of years are not very astonishing to us, for that is not even one day of Brahma. But Brahma was born of Krsna, and intelligent philosophy has been existing in our universe from the date of Brahma’s birth. Brahma was first educated by God, and His knowledge has been passed down to us in the Vedic literature. So we get such intelligent information in the Vedas. But those so-called scientists and philosophers who do not follow this system of descending knowledge, who do not accept knowledge thus received from higher authorities–they can’t have any perfect knowledge, no matter what research work they carry out with their blunt senses. So whatever they say, we take it as imperfect. Our method is different from theirs. They are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains. This point should be stressed. They are dealing with dead bones, and we are dealing with living brains. So which should be considered better? THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT TORTURED AND POISONED TO DEATH BY HIS JUDAS DISCIPLES (Leaders of a Sinister Movement) [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/sp\_poisoned/sp\_poisoned.htm](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/sp_poisoned/sp_poisoned.htm) or [http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp\_poisoned/sp\_poisoned.htm](http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp_poisoned/sp_poisoned.htm) Web Sites: PRABHUPADA Your ever well wisher [www.prabhupada.org.uk](http://www.prabhupada.org.uk) or [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/) KRISHNA BHAKTIVEDANTA WHOLLY COW PROTECTION SOCIETY [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada108/](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada108/) ---
**Author:** ![Moti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@Moti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moti)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/4 "2003-06-28T13:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Where’s the debate? Prabhupada doesn’t understand evoltution or evolutionary processes, and his “no animal has ever gone extinct” statement is pretty bizzare. \*\* Evolution in Fact and Fantasy [Part 1] Los Angeles, June 1972: Srila Prabhupada asserts that Darwin’s theory of evolution is inconclusive and illogical. But Darwin’s is not the only theory of evolution. The Vedas explain that an evolutionary process governs the progress of the soul. “We accept evolution,” Srila Prabhupada says, “but not that the forms of the species are changing. The bodies are all already there, but the soul is evolving by changing bodies and by transmigrating from one body to another… The defect of the evolutionists is that they have no information of the soul.” Devotee: Darwin tried to show how the origin of living species could be fully explained by the purely mechanical, unplanned action of natural forces. By the process he called “natural selection,” all the higher, complex forms of life gradually evolved from more primitive and rudimentary ones. In a given animal population, for example, some individuals will have traits that make them adapt better to their environment; these more fit individuals will survive to pass on their favorable traits to their offspring. The unfit will gradually be weeded out naturally. Thus a cold climate will favor those who have, say, long hair or fatty tissue, and the species will then gradually evolve in that direction. Srila Prabhupada: The question is that in the development of the body, is there any plan that a particular kind of body–with, as you say, long hair or fatty tissue–should exist under certain natural conditions? Who has made these arrangements? That is the question. Devotee: No one. Modern evolutionists ultimately base their theory on the existence of chance variations. Srila Prabhupada: That is nonsense. There is no such thing as chance. If they say “chance,” then they are nonsense. Our question remains. Who has created the different circumstances for the existence of different kinds of animals? Devotee: For example, a frog may lay thousands of eggs, but out of all of them only a few may survive to adulthood. Those who do are more fit than the others. If the environment did not favorably select the fittest, then too many frogs– Srila Prabhupada: Yes, frogs and many other animals lay eggs by the hundreds. A snake gives birth to scores of snakes at a time, and if all were allowed to exist, there would be a great disturbance. Therefore, big snakes devour the small snakes. That is nature’s law. But behind nature’s law is a brain. That is our proposition. Nature’s law is not blind, for behind it there is a brain, and that brain is God. We learn this from the Bhagavad-gita (9.10): mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. Whatever is taking place in material nature is being directed by the Supreme Lord, who maintains everything in order. So the snake lays eggs by the score, and if many were not killed, the world would be overwhelmed by snakes. Similarly, male tigers kill the cubs. The economic theory of Malthus states that whenever there is overpopulation, there must be an outbreak of war, epidemic, famine, or the like to curb it. These natural activities do not take place by chance but are planned. Anyone who says they are a matter of chance has insufficient knowledge. Devotee: But Darwin has a huge amount of evidence– Srila Prabhupada: Evidence? That is all right. We also have got evidence. Evidence must be there. But as soon as there is evidence, there should be no talk of “chance.” Devotee: For example, out of millions of frogs, one may happen to be better adapted to living in the water. Srila Prabhupada: But that is not by chance! That is by plan! He doesn’t know that. As soon as one says “chance,” it means his knowledge is imperfect. A man says “chance” when he cannot explain. It is evasive. So the conclusion is that he is without perfect knowledge and therefore unfit for giving any knowledge. He is cheating, that’s all. Devotee: Well, Darwin sees a “plan” or “design” in a sense, but– Srila Prabhupada: If he sees a plan or design, then whose design? As soon as you recognize a design, you must acknowledge a designer. If you see a plan, then you must accept a planner. That he does not know. Devotee: But the “plan” is only the involuntary working of nature. Srila Prabhupada: Nonsense. There is a plan. The sun rises daily according to exact calculation. It does not follow our calculation; rather, we calculate according to the sun. Experiencing that in such-and-such season the sun rises at such-and-such time, we learn that according to the season the sun rises exactly on the minute, the second. It is not by whimsy or chance but by minute plan. Devotee: But can’t you say it’s just mechanical? Srila Prabhupada: Then who made it mechanical? If something is mechanical, then there must be a mechanic, a brain, who made the machine. Here is something mechanical [Srila Prabhupada points to a Telex machine]: Who made it? This machine has not come out by itself. It is made of iron, and the iron did not mold itself into a machine; there is a brain who made the machine possible. So everything in nature has a plan or design, and behind that plan or design is a brain, a very big brain. Devotee: Darwin tried to make the appearance and disappearance of living forms seem so natural and involuntary that God is removed from the picture. Evolutionary theory makes it appear as if combinations of material ingredients created life, and then various species evolved one from another naturally. Srila Prabhupada: That is foolishness. Combination means God. God is combining. Combination does not take place automatically. Suppose I am cooking. There are many ingredients gathered for cooking, but they do not combine together by themselves. I am the cooker, and in cooking I combine together ghee, spices, rice, dal, and so on; and in this way, nice dishes are produced. Similarly, the combination of ingredients in nature requires God. Otherwise how does the moment arise in which the combination takes place? Do you place all the ingredients in the kitchen and in an hour come back and say, “Oh, where is my meal?” Nonsense! Who will cook your meal? You’ll starve. But take help of a living being, and then we’ll cook and we can eat. This is our experience. So if there is combination, then who is combining? They are fools not to know how combination takes place. Devotee: Scientists now say life arose out of four basic elements: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen. Srila Prabhupada: If the basic principle is chemicals, who made the chemicals? That question should be asked. Devotee: Isn’t it possible that one day science will discover the source of these chemicals? Srila Prabhupada: There is no question of discovering: the answer is already known, although it may not be known to you. We know. The Vedanta says, janmady asya yatah: the original source of everything is Brahman, Krsna. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate: “I am the origin of everything.” (Bhagavad-gita 10.8) So we know that there is a big brain who is doing everything. We know. The scientists may not know; that is their foolishness. Devotee: They might say the same thing about us. Srila Prabhupada: No, they cannot say the same thing about us. We accept Krsna, but not blindly. Our predecessors, the great acaryas and learned scholars, have accepted Krsna as the origin of everything, so we are not following blindly. We claim that Krsna is the origin, but what claim can the scientist make? As soon as he says “chance,” it means that he has no knowledge. We don’t say “chance.” We have an original cause; but he says chance. Therefore he has no knowledge. Devotee: They try to trace back the origin by means of excavation. And they have found that gradually through the years the animal forms are evolving toward increasingly more complex and specialized forms, from invertebrates to fishes, then to amphibians, then to reptiles and insects, to mammals and birds, and finally to humans. In that process many species, like the dinosaurs, appeared, flourished, and then disappeared forever, became extinct. Eventually, primitive apelike creatures appeared, and from them man gradually developed. Srila Prabhupada: Is the theory that the human body comes from the monkeys? Devotee: Humans and monkeys are related. They come from the same– Srila Prabhupada: Related? Everything is related; that is another thing. But if the monkey body is developing into a human body, then why, after the human body is developed, doesn’t the monkey species cease to exist? Devotee: The humans and the monkeys are branches of the same tree. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and both are now existing. Similarly, we say that at the time the evolutionists say life began, there were human beings existing. Devotee: They find no evidence for that. Srila Prabhupada: Why no evidence? Devotee: In the ground. By excavation. They find no evidence in the ground. Srila Prabhupada: Is the ground the only evidence? Is there no other evidence? Devotee: The only evidence they accept is the testimony of their senses. Srila Prabhupada: But they still cannot prove that there was no human being at the time they say life originated. They cannot prove that. Devotee: It appears that in certain layers of earth there are remains of apelike men– Srila Prabhupada: Apelike men or manlike apes are still existing now, alongside human beings. If one thing has been developed by the transformation of another thing, then that original thing should no longer be in existence. When in this way a cause has produced its effect, the cause ceases to exist. But in this case we see that the cause is still present, that there are still monkeys and apes. Devotee: But monkeys did not cause men; both came from the same common ancestor. That is their account. Srila Prabhupada: We say that we all come from God, the same ancestor, the same father. The original father is Krsna. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (14.5), sarva-yonisu kaunteya: “Of as many forms as there are,…” aham bija-pradah pita: “I am the seed-giving father.” So what is your objection to this? Devotee: Well, if I examine the layers of earth, I find in the deepest layers no evidence– Srila Prabhupada: You are packed up with layers of earth, that’s all. That is the boundary of your knowledge. But that is not knowledge; there are many other evidences. Devotee: But surely if men were living millions of years ago, they would have left evidence, tangible evidence, behind them. I could see their remains. Srila Prabhupada: So I say that in human society bodies are burned after death, cremated. So where does your excavator get his bones? Devotee: Well, that’s possible, but– Srila Prabhupada: According to our Vedic system, the body is burned to ashes after death. Where, therefore, would the rascal get the bones? Animals are not burned; their bones remain. But human beings are burned, and therefore they cannot find their bones. Devotee: I’m just saying that it appears, through layer after layer of deposits in the earth, that biological forms tend to progress from simple and primitive forms to more and more complex and specialized ones, until finally civilized man appears. Srila Prabhupada: But at the present moment both simple and complex forms are existing. One did not develop into the other. For example, my childhood body has developed into my adult body, and the child’s body is no longer there. So if the higher, complex species developed from the simpler, lower species, then we should see no simple species. But all species are now existing simultaneously. When I see all 8,400,000 species of life existing, what is the question of development? Each species exists now, and it existed long ago. You might not have seen it, but you have no proper source of knowledge. You might have missed it. That is another thing. Devotee: But all the evidence shows otherwise. Five hundred million years ago there were no land animals; there were only aquatics. Srila Prabhupada: That is nonsense. You cannot give a history of five hundred million years! Where is the history of five hundred million years? You are simply imagining. You say “historical evidence,” but where is your evidence? You cannot give a history for more than three thousand years, and you are speaking about five hundred million. This is all nonsense. Devotee: If I dig far into the ground, layer by layer– Srila Prabhupada: By dirt you are calculating five hundred million years? It could be ten years. You cannot give the history of human society past three thousand years, so how can you speak of four hundred or five hundred million years ago? Where were you then? Were you there, so you can say that all these species were not there? This is imagination. In this way everyone can imagine and say some nonsense. We accept evolution, but not that the forms of the species are changing. The bodies are all already there, but the soul is evolving by changing bodies and by transmigrating from one body to another. I have evolved from my childhood body to my adult body, and now my childhood body is extinct. But there are many other children. Similarly, all the species are now existing simultaneously, and they were all there in the past. For example, if you are traveling in a train, you find first class, second class, third class; they are all existing. If you pay a higher fare and enter the first-class carriage, you cannot say, “Now the first class is created.” It was always existing. So the defect of the evolutionists is that they have no information of the soul. The soul is evolving, transmigrating, from one compartment to another compartment, simply changing place. The Padma Purana says that there are 8,400,000 species of life, and the soul evolves through them. This evolutionary process we accept: the soul evolves from aquatics to plants, to insects, to birds, to animals, and then to the human forms. But all these forms are already there. They do not change. One does not become extinct and another survive. All of them are existing simultaneously. Devotee: But Darwin says there are many species, like dinosaurs, that are seen to be extinct. Srila Prabhupada: What has he seen? He is not so powerful that he can see everywhere or everything. His power to see is limited, and by that limited power he cannot conclude that one species is extinct. That is not possible. No scientist will accept that. After all, all the senses by which you gather knowledge are limited, so how can you say this is finished or that is extinct? You cannot see. You cannot search out. The earth’s circumference is twenty-five thousand miles; have you searched through all the layers of rock and soil over the whole earth? Have you excavated all those places? Devotee: No. Srila Prabhupada: Therefore our first charge against Darwin is this: He says there were no human beings millions of years ago. That is not a fact. We now see human beings existing along with all other species, and it should be concluded that this situation always existed. Human life has always been there. Darwin cannot say there was no human life. Devotee: We don’t see any dinosaurs existing. Srila Prabhupada: You do not see because you have no power to see. Your senses are very limited, so what you see or don’t see cannot be authoritative. So many people–the majority of people–say, “I don’t see God.” Shall we accept, then, that there is no God? Are we crazy for being devotees of God? Devotee: No, but dinosaurs– Srila Prabhupada: But simply by dinosaurs being missing you cannot make your case. What about all the other species? Devotee: Many, many others are also extinct. Srila Prabhupada: Say I accept that many are extinct–because the evolutionary process means that as an earlier species gradually changes into a later species, the earlier vanishes, becomes extinct. But we see that many monkeys are still here. Man evolved from the simians, but simians have not disappeared. Monkeys are here, and men are here. Devotee: But still I’m not convinced. If we make geological investigations all over the world, not just here and there, but in many parts of the world, and in every case we find the same thing– Srila Prabhupada: But I say you have not studied all over the world. Has Darwin studied all the continents on this planet? Has he gone down into the depths of the seas and there excavated all the layers of the earth? No. So his knowledge is imperfect. This is the relative world, and here everyone speaks with relative knowledge. Therefore we should accept knowledge from a person who is not within this relativity. Devotee: Actually, Darwin hit upon his theory because of what he observed on his voyage in 1835 to the Galapagos Islands, off the coast of South America. He found there species that exist nowhere else. Srila Prabhupada: That means he has not seen all the species. He has not traveled all over the universe. He has seen one island, but he has not seen the whole creation. So how can he determine what species exist and don’t exist? He has studied one part of this earth, but there are many millions of planets. He has not seen all of them; he has not excavated the depths of all the planets. So how can he conclude, “This is nature”? He has not seen everything, nor is it possible for any human being to see everything. Devotee: Let’s just confine ourselves to this planet. Srila Prabhupada: No, why should we? Nature is not only on this planet. ---
**Author:** ![Moti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@Moti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moti)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/5 "2003-06-28T13:31:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Where’s the debate? Prabhupada doesn’t understand evoltution or evolutionary processes, and his “no animal has ever gone extinct” statement is pretty bizzare. \*\* Evolution in Fact and Fantasy [Part 2] Devotee: Because you said that on this planet there were complex forms of living beings millions and millions of years ago. Srila Prabhupada: We are not talking about this planet, but about anywhere. You are referring to nature. Nature is not limited or confined to this planet. You cannot say that. Nature, material nature, includes millions of universes, and in each and every universe there are millions of planets. If you have studied only this planet, your knowledge is insufficient. Devotee: But you said before that millions of years ago on this planet there were horses, elephants, civilized men– Srila Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Devotee: But from hundreds of different sources there is no evidence. Srila Prabhupada: I say they are existing now–men, horses, snakes, insects, trees. So why not millions of years ago? Devotee: Because there is no evidence. Srila Prabhupada: That doesn’t mean… ! You limit your study to one planet. That is not full knowledge. Devotee: I just want to find out for the time being about– Srila Prabhupada: Why the time being? If you are not perfect in your knowledge, then why should I accept your theory? That is my point. Devotee: Well, if you claim that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet– Srila Prabhupada: Whether on this planet or on another planet, that is not the point. The point is that all species exist and keep on existing by the arrangement of nature. We learn from the Vedic texts that there are 8,400,000 species established. They may be in your neighborhood or they may be in my neighborhood–the number and types are fixed. But if you simply study your neighborhood, it is not perfect knowledge. Evolution we admit. But your evolutionary theory is not perfect. Our theory of evolution is perfect. From the Vedas we know that there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies provided by nature, but the soul is the same in all, in spite of the different types of body. There is no change in the soul, and therefore the Bhagavad-gita (5.18) says that one who is wise, a pandita, does not see the species or the class; he sees oneness, equality. Panditah sama-darsinah. One who sees to the bottom sees the soul, and he does not find there any difference between all these species. Devotee: So Darwin and other material scientists who have no information about the soul– Srila Prabhupada: They’re missing the whole point. Devotee: They say that all living things tend to evolve from lower to higher. In the history of the earth– Srila Prabhupada: That may be accepted. For example, in an apartment building there are different kinds of apartments: first-class apartments, second-class apartments, third-class apartments. According to your desire and qualification, as you are fit to pay the rent, you are allowed to move up to the better apartments. But the different apartments are already there. They are not evolving. The residents are evolving by moving to new apartment s as they desire. Devotee: As they desire. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. According to our mentality at the time of death, we get another “apartment,” another body. But the “apartment” is already there, not that I’m creating the “apartment.” And the classes of “apartments” are fixed at 8,400,000. Just like the hotel-keeper: he has experience of his customers coming and wanting different kinds of facilities. So he has made all sorts of accommodations to oblige all kinds of customers. Similarly, this is God’s creation. He knows how far a living entity can think, so He has made all these different species accordingly. When God thinks, “Come on, come here,” nature obliges. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani (Bhagavad-gita 3.27): Nature is offering facility. God, Krsna, is sitting in the heart of the living entity as Paramatma, and He knows, “He wants this.” So the Lord orders nature, “Give him this apartment,” and nature obliges: “Yes, come on; here is your apartment.” This is the real explanation. Devotee: I understand and accept that. But I’m still puzzled as to why there is no geological evidence that in former times on this planet there were more complex forms. Srila Prabhupada: Why are you taking geological evidence as final? Is it final? Science is progressing. You cannot say it is final. Devotee: But I have excavated all parts of the world, and every time– Srila Prabhupada: No. You have not excavated all parts of the world. Devotee: Well, on seven continents. Srila Prabhupada: Seven continents is not the whole world. You say you have excavated the whole world, but we say no, not even an insignificant portion. So your knowledge is limited. Dr. Frog has examined his three-foot-wide well, and now he claims to know the ocean. Experimental knowledge is always imperfect, because one experiments with imperfect senses. Therefore, scientific knowledge must be imperfect. Our source of knowledge is different. We do not depend on experimental knowledge. Now you see no dinosaurs, nor have I seen all the 8,400,000 different forms of life. But my source of knowledge is different. You are an experimenter with imperfect senses. I have taken knowledge from the perfect person, who has seen everything, who knows everything. Therefore, my knowledge is perfect. Say, for example, that I receive knowledge from my mother: “Here is your father.” But you are trying to search out your father on your own. You don’t go to your mother and ask; you just search and search. Therefore, no matter how much you search, your knowledge will always remain imperfect. Devotee: And your knowledge says that millions of years ago there were higher forms of life on this planet. Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes, because our Vedic information is that the first created being is the most intelligent, the most intellectual person within the universe–Lord Brahma, the cosmic engineer. So how can we accept your theory that intellect develops by evolution? We have received our Vedic knowledge from Brahma, who is so perfect. Dr. Frog has studied his three-foot well, his little reservoir of water. The Atlantic Ocean is also a reservoir of water, but there is a vast difference. Dr. Frog cannot inform us about the Atlantic Ocean. But we take knowledge from the one who has made the Atlantic Ocean. So our knowledge is perfect. Devotee: But wouldn’t there be evidence in the earth, some remains? Srila Prabhupada: Our evidence is intelligence, not stones and bones. Our evidence is intelligence. We get Vedic information by disciplic succession from the most intelligent. It is coming down by sruti, hearing. Vyasadeva heard from Narada, Narada heard from Brahma–millions and millions of years ago. Millions and millions of our years pass, and it is not even one day for Brahma. So millions and billions and trillions of years are not very astonishing to us, for that is not even one day of Brahma. But Brahma was born of Krsna, and intelligent philosophy has been existing in our universe from the date of Brahma’s birth. Brahma was first educated by God, and His knowledge has been passed down to us in the Vedic literature. So we get such intelligent information in the Vedas. But those so-called scientists and philosophers who do not follow this system of descending knowledge, who do not accept knowledge thus received from higher authorities–they can’t have any perfect knowledge, no matter what research work they carry out with their blunt senses. So whatever they say, we take it as imperfect. Our method is different from theirs. They are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains. This point should be stressed. They are dealing with dead bones, and we are dealing with living brains. So which should be considered better? THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT TORTURED AND POISONED TO DEATH BY HIS JUDAS DISCIPLES (Leaders of a Sinister Movement) [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/sp\_poisoned/sp\_poisoned.htm](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/sp_poisoned/sp_poisoned.htm) or [http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp\_poisoned/sp\_poisoned.htm](http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp_poisoned/sp_poisoned.htm) Web Sites: PRABHUPADA Your ever well wisher [www.prabhupada.org.uk](http://www.prabhupada.org.uk) or [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/) KRISHNA BHAKTIVEDANTA WHOLLY COW PROTECTION SOCIETY [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada108/](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada108/) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/6 "2003-06-28T13:31:35Z")
_Using your own words and not quoting a text_, could you please restate your debate in one sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Moti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@Moti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moti)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/7 "2003-06-28T13:32:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Where’s the debate? Prabhupada doesn’t understand evoltution or evolutionary processes, and his “no animal has ever gone extinct” statement is pretty bizzare. \*\* Karandhara. Modern proponents of Darwinism say that the first living organism was created chemically. Srila Prabhupada. And I say to them, “If life originated from chemicals, and if your science is so advanced, then why can’t you create life biochemically in your laboratories?” 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/8 "2003-06-28T13:33:22Z")
Can you stop spamming the boards with claptrap please. ---
**Author:** ![Moti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@Moti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moti)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/9 "2003-06-28T13:33:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*_Using your own words and not quoting a text_, could you please restate your debate in one sentence? \*\* “If life originated from chemicals, and if your science is so advanced, then why can’t you create life biochemically in your laboratories?” 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Moti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@Moti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moti)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/10 "2003-06-28T13:35:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*Can you stop spamming the boards with claptrap please. \*\* Prabhupada: The dog is barking. He is thinking, "I am dog. I am appointed here as watchman, watchdog, and as soon as somebody is passing, ‘Yow! Gow! Gow!’ " So, and similarly, if I keep myself in the dog mentality and act like that–“Why you have come to this country [FORUM] ? Why you have come to my jurisdiction?” the same dog mentality. What cats and dogs will understand about philosophy? If a dog is barking and you speak with him very nicely “my dear dog, please try to control your barking, it is very disturbing” will he be able to understand? therefore we simply throw him a bone, and he is satisfied. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/11 "2003-06-28T13:36:22Z")
Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Moti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@Moti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moti)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/12 "2003-06-28T13:40:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*Thank you. \*\* Same to you. THE VULTURE’S CURSE The current propaganda that “God is dead” is spread because people want to continue being rascals without restriction. This is the basic principle underlying the denial of God’s existence. But however much we deny His existence, He will not die. In this regard, there is a Bengali proverb that says: sakuni sape gorumarana. The word sakuni means vulture. Vultures enjoy dead animal carcasses, especially the carcass of the cow. Sometimes a vulture may go for days without a carcass; therefore this proverb says that the vulture curses the cow, wishing him to die. But this does not mean that the cow will die just to oblige the vulture. Similarly, these atheistic vultures want to see God dead so they can take pleasure in thinking, “Now God is dead, and I can do anything I like.” We must know then for certain that there is a controller; that is the beginning of knowledge. Why should we deny this truth? In every field of activity we find some finite controller, so how can we deny the existence of an infinite controller in this creation? THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT TORTURED AND POISONED TO DEATH BY HIS JUDAS DISCIPLES (Leaders of a Sinister Movement) [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/sp\_poisoned/sp\_poisoned.htm](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/sp_poisoned/sp_poisoned.htm) or [http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp\_poisoned/sp\_poisoned.htm](http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/sp_poisoned/sp_poisoned.htm) Web Sites: PRABHUPADA Your ever well wisher [www.prabhupada.org.uk](http://www.prabhupada.org.uk) or [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada/) KRISHNA BHAKTIVEDANTA WHOLLY COW PROTECTION SOCIETY [http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada108/](http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada108/) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/13 "2003-06-28T13:43:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Moti \* > \*\*“If life originated from chemicals, and if your science is so advanced, then why can’t you create life biochemically in your laboratories?” > > 🆒 \*\* I can’t because I am not a science-dude. [These guys](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2499119.stm) are going to have at it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/14 "2003-06-28T13:46:14Z")
You say “Thank you”, and yet you go right back to long quotes from a text. If His Divine Grace wants to post on this message board, he can do so himself. Please use your own words, links _when they are appropriate to the argument you are trying to make_, and do NOT repost all the other links repeatedly. [edited for clarification-Czarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/15 "2003-06-28T13:47:55Z")
Folks, let’s not get too excited, here. This has nothing to do with science or Darwin. This **is** the Forum for **Witnessing** ; you are simply not accustomed to witnessing from outside the Christian community. There is not science and little to debate from this source. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/16 "2003-06-28T13:48:16Z")
I don’t think anybody is going to respond with anything but barking since your posts are long and poorly structured. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/17 "2003-06-28T13:48:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Moti \* > \*\*Prabhupada: The dog is barking. He is thinking, "I am dog. I am appointed here as watchman, watchdog, and as soon as somebody is passing, ‘Yow! Gow! Gow!’ " So, and similarly, if I keep myself in the dog mentality and act like that–“Why you have come to this country [FORUM] ? Why you have come to my jurisdiction?” the same dog mentality. > > What cats and dogs will understand about philosophy? If a dog is barking and you speak with him very nicely “my dear dog, please try to control your barking, it is very disturbing” will he be able to understand? therefore we simply throw him a bone, and he is satisfied. > > 😛 \*\* Simlies, however inane, do not validate and invalid argument. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/18 "2003-06-28T13:49:25Z")
(Although, I certainly agree with **Czarcasm** , that if **Moti** is so unprepared concerning his beliefs that he can only quote others, he has no business posting the stuff, here.) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/19 "2003-06-28T13:50:00Z")
‘Witnessing’ generally doesn’t involve the premeditated act of cut-and-paste. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwinism-extinct/184968/20 "2003-06-28T13:53:23Z")
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