# Darwins Black Box **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2001, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471 "2001-02-07T07:37:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dignan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Dignan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dignan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/21 "2001-02-09T01:31:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t see proof being offered on the theory of evolution. Uhhhh, what about all those fossils and stuff? > [@](#): > > Simply personal opinions and beliefs. From [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > o·pin·ion (-pnyn) n. > A belief or conclusion held with confidence but **not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof** I think evolution has a bit more evidence than creation “science” does. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/22 "2001-02-09T06:18:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godsend1 \* > While I can offer no proof to the theory of creation I don’t see proof being offered on the theory of evolution. No, you are ignoring the evidence presented to you in actual Science classes and available at any decent library, not to mention available in the links cited above. > [@](#): > > This subject is obviously a very serious issue to many people. Because those of us who do not share your religion’s view that the Bible is a 100% correct science textbook just don’t happen to particularly like fools pushing that view on our children in a public school. > [@](#): > > My convictions come from my personal beliefs. I will now say here that this is a highly suspicious statement. If your latest assertion were really true, you would have only used the Bible and not that claptrap by Behe to support it. > [@](#): > > While many of your convictions come from different personal beliefs. That’s a big “no go” on the practical exercise. My convictions abour religion come from my reading of scripture and a few other things. My convictions about scientific matters come from scientists. And I am not talking about those charlatans who created “creationism” as a buzz word. > [@](#): > > I have the proof required by my self to base my beliefs on,you have the proof needed to base your beliefs on. This is not a great battle. Simply personal opinions and beliefs. Thank you all for your efforts and time. > Gman If you believe that then spare us the BS and go away. BTW, doesn’t that 100% correct science textbook of yours kind of frown on using G’s name in vain, Gman? ---
**Author:** ![godsend1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@godsend1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godsend1)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/23 "2001-02-09T06:48:43Z")
There is no proof of evolution. Those links and all the information in the library are based upon theory. If you don’t like my theory that’s ok by me. I don’t have a problem with you having an opinion. 🙂 I find it very interesting that when I post my opinion on something people want to attack me for that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/24 "2001-02-09T07:19:04Z")
Yet another “no go” for you. Evolution is not based on a theory. _ **It is a scientific theory.** _ Just because you have decided not to recognize that does not mean the rest of the planet has not. I’ll type this slowly for you: (quoted from the glossary of my Environmental Science text (ISBN 0-13-083134-4, Environmental Science The Way the World Works, 7th Edition, Nebel, Wright, c 2000) > [@](#): > > **theory**. A conceptual formulation that provides a rational explanation or framework for numerous related observations. You will note that I am talking about numerous related observations. You, on the other hand, are talking about basing something on exactly ZERO observations. That alone disqualifies your story as a scientific theory. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/25 "2001-02-09T14:04:33Z")
godsend said: > [@](#): > > While I can offer no proof to the theory of creation I don’t see proof being offered on the theory of evolution. Then perhaps you should open your eyes. > [@](#): > > This subject is obviously a very serious issue to many people. My convictions come from my personal beliefs. While many of your convictions come from different personal beliefs. I have the proof required by my self to base my beliefs on,you have the proof needed to base your beliefs on. This is not a great battle. Yes, actually, it is. Because people who share your beliefs often try to force them on others. Maybe you aren’t like that. But if not, why on Earth did you come in here to post about Behe? What was your point? Did you even have one? ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/26 "2001-02-09T15:26:46Z")
godsend1: > [@](#): > > I find it very interesting that when I post my opinion on something people want to attack me for that. Yet, previously you said: > [@](#): > > I was interested to find if there was a debate possible here. I don’t think anyone here is attacking you; you asked for a debate, people have pointed to the major flaws in what little you have said (in debate, attacking your argument is not the same as attacking _you_), and we’ve waited for your response. Then, you simply stated: > [@](#): > > My convictions come from my personal beliefs. While many of your convictions come from different personal beliefs. I have the proof required by my self to base my beliefs on,you have the proof needed to base your beliefs on. This is not a great battle. Simply personal opinions and beliefs. Pray tell, exactly what proof to you have for creationism? Scientific evidence? Personal revelation? People who believe evolution is true do not generally come by that conclusion due to “personal beliefs”, nor do we do it to push some heinous atheist agenda on the world, contrary to what you may have been told. No, we examine the evidence. The first thing anyone who is seriously interested in this argument should learn is the difference between the usage of the word “theory” in layman’s terms (WAG) vs the correct usage of the word, which has already been defined for you. This _is_ a great battle, at least for those of us who prefer not to have hogwash taught to our kids in school, as David has said. It is _not_ simply a matter of “personal opinions and beliefs”. ---
**Author:** ![KeithB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@KeithB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KeithB)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/27 "2001-02-09T15:38:35Z")
godsend1: Did you read article that I linked? That has _29_ proofs for evolution. Many do not involve radioactive dating or the interpretation of fossil evidence. There is much evidence in our DNA, itself. Also, you did not respond to my query about what Behe accepts from mainstream science. Do you agree with Behe that: The Earth is 4.6 billion years old Life is hundreds of millions of years old. All life evolved from a common ancestor. Some “irreducibly complex” aspects of life were designed. If you do agree, than just what aspect of evolution do you find “disproved?” ---
**Author:** ![dylan\_73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecccb3/32.png) [@dylan\_73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dylan_73)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/28 "2001-02-09T16:08:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KeithB \* > \*\* > My favorite question for Intellegent Design proponents: Why did God turn-off our ability to create our own vitamin C? The genes are there, they are just part of the “junk DNA.” > \*\* [quick hijack] Could we turn it back on? (if this can’t be answered in one post, I’ll repost in GQ) [/quick hijack] ---
**Author:** ![KeithB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@KeithB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KeithB)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/29 "2001-02-09T16:16:02Z")
I don’t really know – IANAMB [molecular biochemist] – but I suspect that we will really need to improve methods of gene therapy. ---
**Author:** ![dylan\_73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecccb3/32.png) [@dylan\_73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dylan_73)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/30 "2001-02-09T16:28:44Z")
Fair enough. It’s the weekend though, so if google is unobliging I’ll ask the question in GD on Monday. Have a good weekend, free from troubling philosophical questions 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dylan\_73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecccb3/32.png) [@dylan\_73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dylan_73)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/31 "2001-02-09T16:29:32Z")
Fair enough. It’s the weekend though, so if google is unobliging I’ll ask the question in GQ on Monday. Have a good weekend, free from troubling philosophical questions 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/32 "2001-02-09T16:40:26Z")
\*\*godsend1 wrote: There is no proof of evolution. Those links and all the information in the library are based upon theory.\*\* _sigh_ **Godsend1** , go to your local library and start reading some books on the subject of _epistimology_; the science of how we know what we know. Then, once you understand that, we’ll be happy to have an intelligent debate on the subject of evolution vs. creationism. Otherwise, you’re just blowing smoke and wasting your time and ours. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/33 "2001-02-09T17:02:00Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Monty \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godsend1 \* > > > [@](#): > > > > This subject is obviously a very serious issue to many people. > > Because those of us who do not share your religion’s view that the Bible is a 100% correct science textbook just don’t happen to particularly like fools pushing that view on our children in a public school. > > [\*\* By the same argument, someone who does not believe in evolution, for what ever reason, objects to having people they veiw as fools push that view upon THIER children. Since evolution is a theory, not a proven fact. ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/34 "2001-02-09T17:34:41Z")
bdgr: > [@](#): > > By the same argument, someone who does not believe in evolution, for what ever reason, objects to having people they veiw as fools push that view upon THIER children. Since evolution is a theory, not a proven fact. :sigh: Why is the concept of “theory” in a scientific context so difficult to understand? There are no “proven facts”. What we take to be “proven facts” are theories. For example, take the “germ theory” of disease. According to this theory, germs are capable of causing infectious disease. Seems like a proven fact, yes? Then why is it still called a ‘theory’? Hint: because ‘theory’, in scientific terms, does _not_ mean ‘guess’. It’s possible that we’ll discover that germs do _not_ cause disease- that the etiology of tuberculosis, influenza, rabies, etc, is completely different than what we now believe. But it’s unlikely. Evolution is based on science, which is appropriate for teaching in science classes. Creationism is purely religious, and is _not_ appropriate for science classes. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/35 "2001-02-09T20:02:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Holly \* > \*\*bdgr: > > > [@](#): > > > > By the same argument, someone who does not believe in evolution, for what ever reason, objects to having people they veiw as fools push that view upon THIER children. Since evolution is a theory, not a proven fact. > > :sigh: Why is the concept of “theory” in a scientific context so difficult to understand? > > There are no “proven facts”. What we take to be “proven facts” are theories. For example, take the “germ theory” of disease. According to this theory, germs are capable of causing infectious disease. Seems like a proven fact, yes? Then why is it still called a ‘theory’? Hint: because ‘theory’, in scientific terms, does _not_ mean ‘guess’. It’s possible that we’ll discover that germs do _not_ cause disease- that the etiology of tuberculosis, influenza, rabies, etc, is completely different than what we now believe. But it’s unlikely. > > Evolution is based on science, which is appropriate for teaching in science classes. Creationism is purely religious, and is _not_ appropriate for science classes. \*\* Evolution is based on what some people claim to be very weak evidence…I for one don’t know that much about it, and it is not important an issue to me. I hardly feel I am able to debate the merits of either side. My point is, that some people find the conclusions draw from the evidence to be somewhat weak. And there is a large segment of the population that thinks there is evidence that doesnt jive with evolution. And by teaching it in school as an absolute fact(thats the way it was taught to me in high school), I feel is violating the parents and students rights to freedom of religion just as much as teaching creationism would be. I would never dream of forcing my religious viewpoints on someone elses kid. Its not that big of an issue to me, but I feel that people who dont believe in evolution have a legitimate complaint when evolution is force fed to thier kids. You send your kids to school, and they come back saying that the teacher said our familys beliefs are wrong. I think the whole evolution thing should be an elective at best. I believe in speration of church and state. I just think it should go both ways. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/36 "2001-02-09T20:30:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > Evolution is based on what some people claim to be very weak evidence… And some people claim the world is flat. Your point is what? > [@](#): > > I for one don’t know that much about it, and it is not important an issue to me. The former point is clear. The latter assertion not so clear, why are you arguing then? > [@](#): > > My point is, that some people find the conclusions draw from the evidence to be somewhat weak. So what? Some people are ignorant sluts. What matters is what folks who honestly address the evidence conclude. > [@](#): > > And there is a large segment of the population that thinks there is evidence that doesnt jive with evolution. And by teaching it in school as an absolute fact(thats the way it was taught to me in high school), I feel is violating the parents and students rights to freedom of religion just as much as teaching creationism would be. (a) Evolution is not religion. Evolution is science. Science classes teach, as they should, science. (b) your freedom of religion is relevant to religion, not science. > [@](#): > > I would never dream of forcing my religious viewpoints on someone elses kid. Eh? See (a). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bad_Astronomer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/37 "2001-02-09T20:47:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godsend1 \* > \*\*It seems that most people at the SDMB do not believe in creationism. Every one is entitled to their opinions …even you. 🙂 \*\* Actually, most people everywhere (including this country) do not believe in creationism asi t is usually espoused. They are loud, but they are a minority. Also, creationism is not a matter of opinion. It’s a matter of belief, and it is _not_ scientific. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/38 "2001-02-09T21:09:41Z")
Hmmm… I’ve never read Behe. But… The prospect of a life-form spontaneously developing with both an RNA system (to reproduce & maintain itself) and some sort of respiration system (to give it the energy to work) seems much too unlikely to me. Therefore, I am more or less a theist. If you can show me great bogs of ATP just waiting to be exploited on lifeless moons in outer space, _and_ those bogs have random chains of nucleic acids strewn through them… Maybe I could change my mind. But for now, I think the “intelligent design” camp has a point. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/39 "2001-02-09T21:21:44Z")
_\>gasp!\<_ The argument from personal incredulity! I’d heard of it, but I’ve never seen one in captivity! **foolsguinea** , if you haven’t read Behe, then you probably haven’t read his critics, so how do you know whether or not those questions have been addressed? Also, do you understand the potential gap between “intelligent design” and “theism”? ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/40 "2001-02-09T21:58:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > > Evolution is based on what some people claim to be very weak evidence… > > And some people claim the world is flat. Your point is what? > > My point is, right or wrong that there is a large segment of the population that think that the theory is in error. Not just few crackpots. > > > [@](#): > > > > I for one don’t know that much about it, and it is not important an issue to me. > > The former point is clear. The latter assertion not so clear, why are you arguing then? > > My argument is not for or against creationism, but more for the right of poeple to believe and bring up thier kids how they wish. > > > [@](#): > > > > My point is, that some people find the conclusions draw from the evidence to be somewhat weak. > > So what? Some people are ignorant sluts. What matters is what folks who honestly address the evidence conclude. > > And who gets to decide who is honestly addressing the evidence? To call someone an ignorant slut, just because they dont see things the way you do, is pathetic. > > > [@](#): > > > > And there is a large segment of the population that thinks there is evidence that doesnt jive with evolution. And by teaching it in school as an absolute fact(thats the way it was taught to me in high school), I feel is violating the parents and students rights to freedom of religion just as much as teaching creationism would be. > > (a) Evolution is not religion. Evolution is science. Science classes teach, as they should, science. > (b) your freedom of religion is relevant to religion, not science. > > Teaching something that has not been proven, and and is disputed by a large segment of the population as fact to all the kids, regardless of what thier parents or they believe, is wrong. If it were proven with any degree of certainty, maybe. but its not. > > > [@](#): > > > > I would never dream of forcing my religious viewpoints on someone elses kid. > > Eh? See (a). > By forcing evolution on someones child, and telling them that your theory of how the world happened is true, and what they believe is bunk, you are forcing your religious beliefs on them. I know, science is not religion, evolution is not just science. It is some peoples interpretation of scientific evidence. And to force other people to adhere to your viewpoints is not science, it is fascism. The constitution protects freedom of religion, it does not protect the right to cram a much disputed theory down peoples throats in the name of science, especially when it violates their rights. Just like prayer in schools was rightfully banned, so should this. > > My religious beliefs are not in the least threatened by evolution. I believe that God could have easily done things that way. From what I have learned of evolution, through highschool, did not convince me that that is the way it happened, nor am I convinced it didn’t happen that way. I don’t really care that much one way or the other. BUT I DO CARE about any group trying to force its beliefs on another. I don’t like it when Christians do it. I don’t like it when Athiests do it. I dont like it when anyone does it. > > \*\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471.md?page=3)