# Darwins Black Box **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2001, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471 "2001-02-07T07:37:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/41 "2001-02-09T22:08:12Z")
\*\*bdgr wrote: And by teaching it in school as an absolute fact(thats the way it was taught to me in high school), I feel is violating the parents and students rights to freedom of religion just as much as teaching creationism would be.\*\* wrong, **wrong** , **WRONG**. Evolution has nothing to do with religion. Evolution is about how species change over time in response to a varying enviroment. It has nothing to do with Diety in whatever shape or form you want to view It. The subject of religion is never brought up. Since evolution never talks about religion, how can it violate anyone’s freedom of religion? ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/42 "2001-02-09T23:22:55Z")
foolsguinea: > [@](#): > > But… The prospect of a life-form spontaneously developing with both an RNA system (to reproduce & maintain itself) and some sort of respiration system (to give it the energy to work) seems much too unlikely to me. So, your problem is really with abiogenesis, not evolution, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Therefore, I am more or less a theist. Do you realize that evolution does not equal atheism? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/43 "2001-02-10T02:39:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > By the same argument, someone who does not believe in evolution, for what ever reason, objects to having people they veiw as fools push that view upon THIER children. Since evolution is a theory, not a proven fact. I will type this slowly for you, bdgr. “Believe in Evolution” is not a scientific issue. Evolution IS NOT a religion. Please read that again. Evolution is NOT a religion. There’s three times for you to understand that I, the poster known as Monty who just happens to be a believer in a particular deity, understand that Evolution IS NOT a religion. “Creationism” on the other hand, is most assuredly a bad attempt at disguising religion as science. Please be so kind as to explain why the particular “creationism” story supported by those folks just happens to be from the Bible and not from any other scripture. Oops. That’s because to those folks, the only scripture IS the Bible. Unlike so many creationists, I actually paid attention to my science teacher when he said, “The Theory of Evolution does not address deity one way or the other. It merely addresses the scientific theory of Evolution.” ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/44 "2001-02-10T03:03:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > > By forcing evolution on someones child, and telling them that your theory of how the world happened is true, and what they believe is bunk, you are forcing your religious beliefs on them. Well, fine, if you don’t want science taught in the public schools, then just be consistent about it and campaign against the teaching of science altogether. I’ll be curious to see how far you get. But, if you are going to have science taught in the public schools, then don’t start telling scientists what science they can teach (or what you think is science and what you think is not). Clearly, the only reason that the teaching of evolution is challenged is because it offends **some** people’s religious beliefs. If you were going to omit topics to be taught in science classes starting with the most speculative, believe me, you would be throwing out a lot of topics first before you got down to evolution. I don’t really see how you can even talk about modern biology at all without talking about evolution. It is sort of like trying to talk about religion without making reference to the concept of “God”. To teach evolution is not to force religious beliefs on someone; to **not** teach it is to force religious beliefs on someone because you are claiming to teach science but are in fact making choices, on religious grounds, about what science should be taught. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/45 "2001-02-10T03:17:29Z")
I’m not going to be able to address much of this before the exposure to virulent ignorance makes me physically ill, but let’s see if we can get one thought through: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > \*\* > And who gets to decide who is honestly addressing the evidence? See, that’s the beauty of science. **Anyone** can examine the evidence for themselves and look for errors. They are then free to point out those errors, and if they are valid, the rest of the scientific world will take note and work to fix those errors. The fact that evolution has stood up to every single solitary attack that has been made by thousands upon thousands of rabid enemies indicates that it is a very robust, healthy, and sound theory. Do you believe in gravity? Because the theory of evolution is much better scientifically than our theory of gravity. We understand how evolution works and it conflicts with no other area of science. OTOH, we’ve never been able to isolate the fundamental particle of gravity and the theory is in conflict with certain parts of quantum physics. NOTE: this is not a serious problem! We’re not about to chuck out gravity. The fact that evolution is so much sounder should give some indication of the odds of getting rid of that. And now, my Final Thought: Ignorance of a topic does not constitute evidence against it. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I feel a need to wander over to the Pit and rant and rave and swear. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/46 "2001-02-10T03:18:36Z")
bdgr said: > [@](#): > > Evolution is based on what some people claim to be very weak evidence…I for one don’t know that much about it, and it is not important an issue to me. Then why are you here? Seriously. Why are you debating a topic you admit to know little about, and to care little about? Isn’t is likely that perhaps the rest of us know a little bit more and care a little bit more than you do? > [@](#): > > I hardly feel I am able to debate the merits of either side. And yet, here you are, doing just that. > [@](#): > > My point is, that some people find the conclusions draw from the evidence to be somewhat weak. And there is a large segment of the population that thinks there is evidence that doesnt jive with evolution. Science is not determined by a majority vote of the ignorant. It is determined by evidence. The evidence, contrary to what you may “think,” points squarely to evolution. > [@](#): > > And by teaching it in school as an absolute fact(thats the way it was taught to me in high school), I feel is violating the parents and students rights to freedom of religion just as much as teaching creationism would be. Evolution is science. It is taught in science class. It has nothing to do with religion, except that some people who can’t handle reality have decided to take issue with it. That is _their_ problem, not ours. What happens when the next religious group says they believe in miracle healing, and therefore Health class shouldn’t be taught? Or the one that believes in only speaking in Tongues, so English shouldn’t be taught? > [@](#): > > You send your kids to school, and they come back saying that the teacher said our familys beliefs are wrong. So then you, as a parent, explain that you believe differently from many other people, and why. > [@](#): > > I believe in speration of church and state. I just think it should go both ways. Since there is no “church” in evolution, there is no “both ways” to go. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/47 "2001-02-10T04:11:35Z")
Oh, bloody hell! I have never in my life screwed up the coding like that. Now I really need to vent. Off to IRC!! ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/48 "2001-02-10T07:08:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*\*\*bdgr wrote: > > And by teaching it in school as an absolute fact(thats the way it was taught to me in high school), I feel is violating the parents and students rights to freedom of religion just as much as teaching creationism would be.\*\* > > wrong, **wrong** , **WRONG**. Evolution has nothing to do with religion. Evolution is about how species change over time in response to a varying enviroment. It has nothing to do with Diety in whatever shape or form you want to view It. The subject of religion is never brought up. > > Since evolution never talks about religion, how can it violate anyone’s freedom of religion? \*\* What I was taught in school was that evolution is the way life began on this planet, that man evolved from lower life forms etc. Since this, however likely to be true it is, is no where near a proven fact, and is taught as absolute fact, and directly contridicts a very large segment of the populations ideas and religious beliefs on how things came about, I think it does. It is, in effect, the government telling a large body of people that thier religion is wrong. It is just as wrong as school prayer being forced on non christians, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/49 "2001-02-10T07:16:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > > By the same argument, someone who does not believe in evolution, for what ever reason, objects to having people they veiw as fools push that view upon THIER children. Since evolution is a theory, not a proven fact. > > I will type this slowly for you, bdgr. “Believe in Evolution” is not a scientific issue. Evolution IS NOT a religion. > > No need to type slowly, or be insulting. I never said evolution is a religion. It is one theory on how things came to be as they are. Maybe it is the correct theory. Maybe not. > > Please read that again. Evolution is NOT a religion. > > There’s three times for you to understand that I, the poster known as Monty who just happens to be a believer in a particular deity, understand that Evolution IS NOT a religion. > > “Creationism” on the other hand, is most assuredly a bad attempt at disguising religion as science. > > Possibly a bad attempt. Havnt really studied it all that much. Maybe you have, and you could be right. > > Please be so kind as to explain why the particular “creationism” story supported by those folks just happens to be from the Bible and not from any other scripture. > > I never said I support creationism, nor do I advocate it being a mandatory school requirement. > > Oops. That’s because to those folks, the only scripture IS the Bible. > > Unlike so many creationists, I actually paid attention to my science teacher when he said, “The Theory of Evolution does not address deity one way or the other. It merely addresses the scientific theory of Evolution.” \*\* Im not a creationist, but I did pay attention to my science teacher, who said no such thing. They pretty much said, this is the way it happened. You were required to answer questions on test saying that this was the way it happened. It was not taught as a theory in the least. I hear it is in some places, I would certainly be more ok with that then it being taught as an absolute truth. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/50 "2001-02-10T07:20:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > > > > By forcing evolution on someones child, and telling them that your theory of how the world happened is true, and what they believe is bunk, you are forcing your religious beliefs on them. > > Well, fine, if you don’t want science taught in the public schools, then just be consistent about it and campaign against the teaching of science altogether. I’ll be curious to see how far you get. But, if you are going to have science taught in the public schools, then don’t start telling scientists what science they can teach (or what you think is science and what you think is not). Clearly, the only reason that the teaching of evolution is challenged is because it offends **some** people’s religious beliefs. If you were going to omit topics to be taught in science classes starting with the most speculative, believe me, you would be throwing out a lot of topics first before you got down to evolution. I don’t really see how you can even talk about modern biology at all without talking about evolution. It is sort of like trying to talk about religion without making reference to the concept of “God”. > > To teach evolution is not to force religious beliefs on someone; to **not** teach it is to force religious beliefs on someone because you are claiming to teach science but are in fact making choices, on religious grounds, about what science should be taught. \*\* I guess I have more of a problem with the way it is presented as fact. And I wouldnt have a problem with it being offered as an elective. Its just when it is shoved down everyones throat as absolutely true, and the only possible way it could have happened, that kind of bothers me. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/51 "2001-02-10T07:29:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Smeghead \* > \*\*I’m not going to be able to address much of this before the exposure to virulent ignorance makes me physically ill, but let’s see if we can get one thought through: > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > > \*\* > > And who gets to decide who is honestly addressing the evidence? > > See, that’s the beauty of science. **Anyone** can examine the evidence for themselves and look for errors. They are then free to point out those errors, and if they are valid, the rest of the scientific world will take note and work to fix those errors. The fact that evolution has stood up to every single solitary attack that has been made by thousands upon thousands of rabid enemies indicates that it is a very robust, healthy, and sound theory. Do you believe in gravity? Because the theory of evolution is much better scientifically than our theory of gravity. We understand how evolution works and it conflicts with no other area of science. OTOH, we’ve never been able to isolate the fundamental particle of gravity and the theory is in conflict with certain parts of quantum physics. NOTE: this is not a serious problem! We’re not about to chuck out gravity. The fact that evolution is so much sounder should give some indication of the odds of getting rid of that. > > And now, my Final Thought: Ignorance of a topic does not constitute evidence against it. > > Now, if you’ll excuse me, I feel a need to wander over to the Pit and rant and rave and swear. \*\* who ever said that Ignorace of a topic DOES constitute evedence? I never said any such thing. I am not talking about which theory is correct. All I am saying is that people have a right to believe what they want, and to raise thier childeren in thier beliefs. There are quite a few people who do not buy into evolution. It hasnt been proven to be fact. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IT IS FALSE, only that there a lot of people who believe it is, and believe that they have evidence to support thier position. To force their children to only hear one side of the argument, is not right in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/52 "2001-02-10T07:38:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godsend1 \* > \*\*Lemur, > You obviously have issues better dealt with in private. I posted this because I had recently read the information. I was interested to find if there was a debate possible here. It seems that most people at the SDMB do not believe in creationism. Every one is entitled to their opinions …even you. 🙂 \*\* You claim to be starting a debate then defend yourself by attacking the charachter of a poster? Ad homynym attacks, the crutch of the unsupported! [sarcasm] teach me oh master so that I may debate as well as you [/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/53 "2001-02-10T07:56:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*bdgr said: > > > [@](#): > > > > Evolution is based on what some people claim to be very weak evidence…I for one don’t know that much about it, and it is not important an issue to me. > > Then why are you here? > > Seriously. Why are you debating a topic you admit to know little about, and to care little about? Isn’t is likely that perhaps the rest of us know a little bit more and care a little bit more than you do? I’m not debating the merits of eithr side, just the rights of both sides to belief as they wish, and raise thier children as such. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I hardly feel I am able to debate the merits of either side. > > And yet, here you are, doing just that. I’m not. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > My point is, that some people find the conclusions draw from the evidence to be somewhat weak. And there is a large segment of the population that thinks there is evidence that doesnt jive with evolution. > > Science is not determined by a majority vote of the ignorant. It is determined by evidence. The evidence, contrary to what you may “think,” points squarely to evolution. well, the evidence has been interpreted in more than one way. Because someone disagrees with the popular intrepretation doesn’t make them ignorant. It may make them wrong… > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And by teaching it in school as an absolute fact(thats the way it was taught to me in high school), I feel is violating the parents and students rights to freedom of religion just as much as teaching creationism would be. > > Evolution is science. It is taught in science class. It has nothing to do with religion, except that some people who can’t handle reality have decided to take issue with it. That is _their_ problem, not ours. You know, I have heard some creationist types argue that people believe in evolution because they cant handle the concept of God, and of right and wrong…PLEASE NOTE: That is not a view I subscribe to in the least, but it is just as insulting as saying that “people who can’t handle reality have decided to take issue with it”. It is making an unfair generalization about peoples motives. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > You send your kids to school, and they come back saying that the teacher said our familys beliefs are wrong. > > So then you, as a parent, explain that you believe differently from many other people, and why. Thats the same argument that the “prayer in school types” use. That atheists should just teach their children at home about their beliefs and not worry about thier children being forced to listen to religious doctrine. It doesnt wash. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I believe in speration of church and state. I just think it should go both ways. > > Since there is no “church” in evolution, there is no “both ways” to go. \*\* The government should not tell people any particular religion is right, and they shouldn’t tell people that any particular religion is wrong. After all of this I would like to say that if evolution were offered only as an elective, as I suggested, I would want my child to take it any way. I just think that the people who object to it being taught to thier kids have a legitimate point, and the only reason I posted on the subject at all was because I felt that there was a side to the argument that needed to be presented. As I said, I am not a creationist. I personally dont care how we got here, I just believe in tolerance of all beliefs, or lack of beliefs, for that matter. Sorry if I upset you so badly S.H. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/54 "2001-02-10T11:36:43Z")
bdgr: I have some simple questions. Maybe you’d like to take a shot at them? Since you disagree with evolution being tought as a “fact” and all, and have some questions as to how it is tought, I’m sure that you can handle these quite easily… [ol] [li]Please tell me how it happened if we did not get here through abiogenesis and then evolution?[/li][li]Please tell me exactly how every bit of the mountain of data, both observable and deduced through logical reasoning, through almost every scientific discipline from astronomy to zoology, is somehow all adding up to the above scenerio?[/li][li]Please posit your own theory as to how we got here and offer up evidence. To be sporting about it, I won’t require a volume approximating the mountain of evidence that you refuse to accept. I’ll start with any old thing you have, really.[/li][li]Please show me where religion has ever been mentioned in any science text books designed for any High School or college curiculum in the United States?[/li][li]Since you seem to think that we shouldn’t teach Evolution, and think that Creationism should have equal footing, which creation myth should we teach? The [Chinese Creation Myth](http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/ariel.htm) where Pan Gu, after 18,000 years in a black egg, broke out, grew for 18,000 more years, and when he died was the universe? Maybe one of the [Egyptian Creation Myth](http://members.aol.com/egyptart/crea.html), where the heavenly cow named Nut gives birth to the sun daily before swallowing it to start every night? Maybe the [Samoan Creation Myth](http://www.samoa.co.uk/creation.html), where the god Tagaloa told a rock to become the planet and his children? How about an [Australian Aboriginal Legend](http://www.ozemail.com.au/~reed/global/baiame.html), with Baiame fashioning man and women out of dust and dunes? Maybe the [Mexican Creation Myth](http://iserver.saddleback.cc.ca.us/div/la/neh/cmyths.htm), which has Quetzalcoatl creating man from the pulverized bones of his father and his own blood? Maybe the [Aztec Creation Myth](http://www.internet-at-work.com/hos_mcgrane/creation/csaztec.html), which involved our pal Quetzacoatl turning everyone into fishes except for two people who were spared? Or we can draw from the slew of [Native American Creation Myths](http://www.cybercomm.net/~grandpa/cretion.html), which include the Chippewa belief that a woman and a magical dog got together in a cave and nine months later the human race was here, and (my personal favorite), the Chukchee belief that the self-created Raven flew high, relieved himself as he flew and his shit became the land and his piss the waters of the planet, if you like. So which one is it?[/li][/ol] A few simple questions that you have to be able to answer if you even want to begin to change the way science is not only taught, but understood and practiced. In fact, answer these simple questions correctly, and you not only change the way science is taught in your local High Scool, you also probably get a Nobel Peace Prize. I anxiously await your replies… * * * Yer pal, [Satan](http://www.members.tripod.com/jmspoofe/sdmb/satan.jpg) \*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Ten months, one day, 8 hours, 36 minutes and 36 seconds. 12294 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,537.00. Extra life saved: 6 weeks, 16 hours, 30 minutes. See my Sig File FAQ: [http://pages.prodigy.net/briank.o/SigFAQ.htm\*](http://pages.prodigy.net/briank.o/SigFAQ.htm*) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/55 "2001-02-10T12:21:08Z")
Adding to Satan’s message: Annexe B: Given that the Xtian objection to Evolution you’ve put forth is actually that of a sub-set of Xtians and not all: Please explain: (1) Why this is limited to biological sciences and why any school teaching, historical or otherwise(\*), not in keeping with this group’s belief system should not be banned from schools (2) What about other groups desires not to have the same right. Large numbers of Americans appear to believe in para-normal powers and space aliens. Should not Physics classes be excluded for demonstrating the fallacious nature of these beliefs? (\*: e.g. Historical descriptions of the Catholic church which do not presume that the Pope is a minion of Satan – for illustrative purposes only; History of the Middle East which does not operate from the assumption the Bible is literally true, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/56 "2001-02-10T13:10:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > Im not a creationist, but I did pay attention to my science teacher, who said no such thing. They pretty much said, this is the way it happened. You were required to answer questions on test saying that this was the way it happened. It was not taught as a theory in the least. I hear it is in some places, I would certainly be more ok with that then it being taught as an absolute truth. First off, the definition of Theory in Science is different than that of Theory in Mathematics. Basically, in Math a theory is a guess and a theorem is a proven guess. I’ve already quoted the actual definition of theory for scientists. This obviously leaves out creationists and you because you, and they, stubbornly refuse to accept that definition. Continuing to assert that a scientific theory is a guess after repeatedly being shown that is not the case is no more nor less than being dishonest. Second, your teacher, if competent, would have said, “The preponderance of evidence supports the theory of evolution.” Note that there’s no such thing as the Theorem of Evolution because, for scientists, the word used is theory. Third, it has been pointed out already that anyone can critique a scientific theory provided new evidence comes to light. Fourth, no evidence has come to light yet to support a scientific theory other than evolution. Fifth, it has also been pointed out that the Bible is not a science textbook no matter how much the creationists wish it to be. ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/57 "2001-02-10T13:39:01Z")
bdgr: > [@](#): > > I am not talking about which theory is correct. Creationism is not a theory. It’s a religious belief, and thus does not belong in science class. > [@](#): > > All I am saying is that people have a right to believe what they want, and to raise thier childeren in thier beliefs. Of course they do. But they should teach their kids religion outside of public school. > [@](#): > > There are quite a few people who do not buy into evolution. There are also quite a few people who do not buy into the germ theory of disease. I know people who believe disease to be the result of evil spirits and demons. This does not mean we should teach exorcism in science class. > [@](#): > > You know, I have heard some creationist types argue that people believe in evolution because they cant handle the concept of God, and of right and wrong… Then, right off the bat, you know those “creationist types” are talking out of their asses, because anyone who is not virulently ignorant knows that not all evolutionists are atheists. In fact, most Christians _don’t_ have a problem with evolution. > [@](#): > > Thats the same argument that the “prayer in school types” use. That atheists should just teach their children at home about their beliefs and not worry about thier children being forced to listen to religious doctrine. It doesnt wash. Except that compelling kids to pray in school is clearly religious. Science is _not_ religion. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/58 "2001-02-10T14:27:35Z")
bdgr said: > [@](#): > > The government should not tell people any particular religion is right, and they shouldn’t tell people that any particular religion is wrong. They don’t. They teach science. Part of science is evolution. As I have already explained, scientists and teachers cannot be responsible for the many and varying beliefs across the spectrum. I notice that you didn’t respond to the part of my message in which I gave other possible examples of things that other religious people might find offensive. > [@](#): > > After all of this I would like to say that if evolution were offered only as an elective, as I suggested, I would want my child to take it any way. Good. But evolution is not an elective – it forms the basis of biology. Should we make atomic theory an elective? How about gravitational theory? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/59 "2001-02-10T14:28:46Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] bdgr, please stop requoting entire (or almost entire) messages. Only quote that which is necessary to your reply. Thanks. * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471/60 "2001-02-10T19:06:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*[Moderator Hat: ON] > > bdgr, please stop requoting entire (or almost entire) messages. Only quote that which is necessary to your reply. > > Thanks. > > * * * > > David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator > > [Moderator Hat: OFF] > \*\* Sorry about that. Didnt realize I was doing that…It was late… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-black-box/53471.md?page=4)