# Darwin's evolution **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 22, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086 "2002-08-22T15:06:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/1 "2002-08-22T15:06:46Z")
How is Darwin’s evolution different than the modern theory of evolution? I’m aware of his thoughts on the theory of heredity, but not much else. Also, someone I know has been making claims that Darwin was very anti-christian and that it appears in his books, is this true? ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/2 "2002-08-22T15:27:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*Also, someone I know has been making claims that Darwin was very anti-christian and that it appears in his books, is this true? \*\* Not in a position to answer the first part of your question, but just to say that I have heard exactly the reverse - that Darwin was a devout believer who was distressed by the athiest extrapolations of his theories. A little Googling finds the following: [Did Darwin become a Christian on his deathbed?](http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/deathbed.htm) - a site by the Christian Appolgetics and Research Ministry which examines the issue in some depth and (apparantly) without bias [Truthoffiction.com addresses the rumour](http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/darwin.htm) - and concludes it to be Unproven. [Christian Answers discusses his religious beliefs](http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/darwin.html) - and pronounces him “tragically mistaken man who drifted from a childlike trust in [God] into an abyss of hopelessness and agnosticism”, revealing thier agenda. As is so often the case, the truth seems to lie between the two opinions, with Dawin seeming to write from an agnostic viewpoint, if any. Grim ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/3 "2002-08-22T15:52:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > **How is Darwin’s evolution different than the modern theory of evolution? I’m aware of his thoughts on the theory of heredity, but not much else.** The differences between Darwin’s initial theories and the current version could fill several books (and, indeed, have!). The “modern synthesis” in use today can be summarized as follows (from Douglas Futuyma’s _Evolutionary Biology_): > [@](#): > > The major tenets of the evolutionary synthesis, then, were that populations contain genetic variation that arises by random (ie. not adaptively directed) mutation and recombination; that populations evolve by changes in gene frequency brought about by random genetic drift, gene flow, and especially natural selection; that most adaptive genetic variants have individually slight phenotypic effects so that phenotypic changes are gradual (although some alleles with discrete effects may be advantageous, as in certain color polymorphisms); that diversification comes about by speciation, which normally entails the gradual evolution of reproductive isolation among populations; and that these processes, continued for sufficiently long, give rise to changes of such great magnitude as to warrant the designation of higher taxonomic levels (genera, families, and so forth). To contrast, Darwin championed “panselectionism”, the theory that natural selection, working solely at the level of individual organisms, gradually over vast stretches of time, was sufficient to explain essentially all diversity and adaptation seen in organisms today. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/4 "2002-08-22T15:55:02Z")
[This page](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/modern-synthesis.html) gives a reasonable synopsis of some of the ways in which modern evolutionary theory differs from Darwin’s. In Darwin’s time, the mechanism of inheritance of traits via genes was unknown. (Although Gregor Mendel did his pioneering experiments before Darwin’s death, his results were published in an obscure journal and were not generally known.) ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/5 "2002-08-22T16:07:35Z")
This is major peeve of mine. The term “evolution” was not coined or used by Darwin. He used the term “descent with modification” and it was other writers (beginning, I believe with Herbert Spenser, but someone may correct me on that) who coined the term “evolution,” which implies progress – as “descent with modification” specifically and intentionally does not – as well as “survival of the fittest” which was twisted into the philosophy known as “Social Darwinism” (a horrible insult to Darwin, who was an abolitionist and rather liberal in other social matters). All his life Darwin fought against the use of the term “evolution” as well as the application of his theories to the social sphere. it is very sad that he was quite unsucessful in his own life and beyond, and that many people attach his name to theories which he opposed strongly. I do not know of Darwin’s religious beliefs but Spenser was an agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/6 "2002-08-22T16:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\* > Also, someone I know has been making claims that Darwin was very anti-christian and that it appears in his books, is this true? \*\* Darwin was raised in a Christian family and for a time studied for the clergy at Christ’s College, Cambridge University. Darwin was apparently a lukewarm Christian, as he was a lukewarm everything until his lukewarm interest in zoology was heated up by the voyage on the _Beagle_. The statement by the “someone I know” has nothing to do with the validity of the theory of evolution or Darwin’s ideas. It looks like a stab a discrediting Darwin’s theory by a side door attack. The only thing that the theory of evolution threatens along that line is the literal interpretation of the first few chapters of Genesis. Most Christians accept the theory of evolution with no problem. No one believes or advocates the grotesque parody of the theory of evolution that is repeatedly raised and attacked as a straw man by special creation creationists. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/7 "2002-08-22T17:19:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grimpixie \* > > A little Googling finds the following: > [Did Darwin become a Christian on his deathbed?](http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/deathbed.htm) - a site by the Christian Appolgetics and Research Ministry which examines the issue in some depth and (apparantly) without bias With a little Googling, I found: > [@](#): > > _from [The Talk.Origins Archive: The FAQ](http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html)_ > Q. Didn’t Darwin renounce evolution on his deathbed? > A. The Darwin deathbed story is false. And in any case, it is irrelevant. A scientific theory stands or falls according to how well it is supported by the facts, not according to who believes it. [See the Lady Hope Story FAQ.](http://www.ediacara.org/hope.html) From the above link to the Lady Hope story, we have Darwin’s own daughter Henrietta quoted as saying, “I was present at his deathbed. Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A. . . . The whole story has no foundation whatever.”’ (Ellipsis is in the book) I think I’ll beleive Darwin’s daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/8 "2002-08-22T18:16:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\* > > The statement by the “someone I know” has nothing to do with the validity of the theory of evolution or Darwin’s ideas. It looks like a stab a discrediting Darwin’s theory by a side door attack. The only thing that the theory of evolution threatens along that line is the literal interpretation of the first few chapters of Genesis. Most Christians accept the theory of evolution with no problem. No one believes or advocates the grotesque parody of the theory of evolution that is repeatedly raised and attacked as a straw man by special creation creationists. \*\* I know it has nothing to do with the issue, it’s an Ad Hom, but the person I’m emailing back and forth with seems to think that Darwin stated this in his books. The person I’m debating with is a fundamentalist christian (why do I bother debating) and even though I say it has nothing to do with the issue he keeps bringing it up-SO I decided to try to do some research on the matter. The man is making all sorts of absurd claims, which I can post if anyone wants me to. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/9 "2002-08-22T19:55:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > **I know it has nothing to do with the issue, it’s an Ad Hom, but the person I’m emailing back and forth with seems to think that Darwin stated this in his books.** From the sound of it, I rather doubt this person has ever actually _read_ any of Darwin’s books. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/10 "2002-08-22T20:24:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\* > > I know it has nothing to do with the issue, it’s an Ad Hom, but the person I’m emailing back and forth with seems to think that Darwin stated this in his books. The person I’m debating with is a fundamentalist christian (why do I bother debating) and even though I say it has nothing to do with the issue he keeps bringing it up-SO I decided to try to do some research on the matter. > > The man is making all sorts of absurd claims, which I can post if anyone wants me to. \*\* Take a clue from **Darwin’s Finch** and ask your correspondent to cite which of Darwin’s many essays, papers, letters and books contain these statements. If he gives you a cite then you can see for yourself whether or not it says what he claims it says. I doubt there are any such cites, by the way. Why should you do the research to _disprove_ his claim? Even if you searched Darwin’s output forever and didn’t find anything all you have demonstrated is that you didn’t find anything, not that there isn’t anything there to find. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/11 "2002-08-22T20:36:12Z")
Darwin’s Finch & David- I doubt he read any of Darwin’s books either, but he claims to have. Also I am asking for cites, it’s just that he usually emails me back after at least a day or two, and I wanted to check. I own and have read Origin of the Species-it’s just been several years, so I can’t recall whether or not he said anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/12 "2002-08-22T21:51:00Z")
The Voyage of the Beagle, The Origins of Species and its Sixth Edition, and The Descent of Man are all available on-line through [Literature.org](http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/). In addition, [The Origin of Species](http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/DarOrig.html) and [The expression of the emotions in man and animals](http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/DarExpr.html) are on-line from the University of Virginia. (Other copies of various works are also out there.) So if you want to find out whether Darwin made a specific statement (from his more popular works), you can simply open them up and search for the key word. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/13 "2002-08-22T22:38:30Z")
**Meatros** : At the bottom of [this site](http://fp.bio.utk.edu/darwin/essays/biography.html) is a list of all the important books and monographs written by Darwin (as noted by **tomndebb** , several are available online). You can find info on several of his correspondences [here](http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/Departments/Darwin/pubns.html) as well. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/14 "2002-08-23T07:42:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrMatrix \* > \*\*I think I’ll beleive Darwin’s daughter. \*\* Your quote was printed verbatim in my linked article under the heading “ **The Evidence Against** ” and the article concludes as follows (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > We would have liked to conclude that, on balance, her account is truthful, but there is also much against it, and **we cannot come to a firm conclusion either way.** Whichever side is right, it leaves unanswered questions on the other side. We have **presented the evidence for and against, and must leave the reader to decide**. No doubt, as ever, the prejudices and bias with which each one comes to this controversy may have already predetermined the result of their conclusions. As always, it is worth reading the whole article… Grim ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/15 "2002-08-23T12:59:02Z")
**Hello Again** , you recalled correctly, “survival of the fittest” comes from Spencer – from _before_ Origin of Species\* was published; it was later incorporated into the sixth Ed. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/darwins-evolution/125086/16 "2002-08-23T14:31:38Z")
Thanks all for the useful resources!