# Date Ranges in (real) Roman Numerals **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 5, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542 "2013-05-05T13:49:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/1 "2013-05-05T13:49:14Z")
Here in Modern Times we’ll indicate a range of years using a hyphen: 1942-1958. Did the classical Romans have a comparable shortcut? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/2 "2013-05-05T15:56:20Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Here in Modern Times we’ll indicate a range of years using a hyphen: 1942-1958. Did the classical Romans have a comparable shortcut? I doubt it. For one thing, they did not have a fixed calendar that provided the same sort of numbering as our current calendar. They had available the notation A.U.B. (_Ab Urbe Condita_, from the city’s founding), but it was only used a few times by historians who were setting up a specific timeline. In general use, they dated things according to the paired consul names of whomever held the offices in a particular year. Their language was just not set up to refer to periods of time in the same way. (Similarly, the days of the month were not normally numbered 1 through 30 or 31. Instead, they identified days of the month by indicating how many days it was before specific name-days within the month: [Roman calendar - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ides_(calendar)#Months) ) ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/3 "2013-05-05T16:21:26Z")
I suspect that the range would’ve been indicated by using the words “from” and “to”. The “shortcut” which the OP asks about is a kind of punctuation, which seems to have developed with the printing press. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/4 "2013-05-05T17:56:49Z")
Thanks TomnD. It’s interesting that the Romans didn’t place value on continuous dating, considering that we now **love** using roman numerals to denote years (in movie credits) or continuity (SuperBowls). If there was a correct format I was planning on sneaking it into a logo I’m designing (as an Easter Egg element, like the infamous FedEx arrow). I’ll use a hyphen or just a large space instead. Authenticity would have be a nice touch, but isn’t crucial. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/5 "2013-05-05T18:18:58Z")
Since all their dates were originally BC, they were initially decreasing as time went by. Then, because they hadn’t invented zero yet we ended up with no year zero, it goes from IBC to ADI. Must have been very confusing.Well duh ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/6 "2013-05-05T18:21:27Z")
Well, certainly, someone is confused. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/7 "2013-05-05T18:25:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Their language was just not set up to refer to periods of time in the same way. How do you mean this? There’s nothing in Latin as a language that prevents you from constructing phrases such as ‘between X moment and Y moment’, with X and Y being years. They just chose not too, but they could have if they wanted to, and started doing so when they felt like it. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/8 "2013-05-05T18:28:43Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > It’s interesting that the Romans didn’t place value on continuous dating NOBODY did. Every culture counted its calendar years starting from some important event. Sometimes that event would be the creation, as calculated by the dominant religion, but it was most often counted from the beginning of the reign of the current ruler. The Christian calendar is no different, except for how long it has lasted. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/9 "2013-05-05T18:29:34Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Thanks TomnD. > > It’s interesting that the Romans didn’t place value on continuous dating, considering that we now **love** using roman numerals to denote years (in movie credits) or continuity (SuperBowls). > > If there was a correct format I was planning on sneaking it into a logo I’m designing (as an Easter Egg element, like the infamous FedEx arrow). I’ll use a hyphen or just a large space instead. Authenticity would have be a nice touch, but isn’t crucial. For authenticity in our OWN tradition, don’t use a hyphen. Use an en dash. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/10 "2013-05-05T18:35:08Z")
This is similar to the hyphen put in the names of Assyrian kings like Tiglath-Pileser. There weren’t any hyphens in cuneiform, but at some point the transliterators decided that they needed them. Why them and not any of the other ancient languages? I’ve never seen an answer to this. Ancient languages had no punctuation at all, not even periods. They just wrote ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/11 "2013-05-05T18:55:52Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > For authenticity in our OWN tradition, don’t use a hyphen. Use an en dash. Disagree. If I’m working for a publication I’ll use their preferred style manual. On a logo I’ll do what communicates clearly and looks nice. To me an en dash is short, ugly and doesn’t visually convey the passage of time. I might well use a tilde. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/12 "2013-05-05T23:03:39Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > How do you mean this? There’s nothing in Latin as a language that prevents you from constructing phrases such as ‘between X moment and Y moment’, with X and Y being years. They just chose not too, but they could have if they wanted to, and started doing so when they felt like it. I will admit to being unclear on the point. Certainly, one could easily say “from the year of the Consuls T. Numicius Priscus and A. Verginius Caeliomontanus to the year of P. Servilius Priscus and L. Aebutius Helva”. One could also say “From the sixth day before the May Kalends to the third day before the May Kalends.” However, they did not reckon their months by numbered days until after the third century C.E., so saying “I will be in Ostia from the second of May to the ninth of May” would have simply confused one’s audience. Similarly, announcing that “G. Julius Cæsar lived from 653 to 709 A.U.B.” would have forced one’s audience to step back and try to work out when that period actually occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/13 "2013-05-05T23:15:17Z")
??? Twice in this thread, **tomndebb** said A.U.B. Innit A.U.C.? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/14 "2013-05-05T23:21:21Z")
Yes. It is A.U. **C**. Heck, the first time, I spelled out what it stood for and still couldn’t get the initials correct. Old age is a terrible malady. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/15 "2013-05-06T00:30:04Z")
I was estimating a 65% chance you knew something I didn’t! (“Yes, but the Romans used the ‘B’ to abbreviate ‘Burbiae,’ another word for ‘City.’”) ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/16 "2013-05-06T01:51:58Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > . . .Ancient languages had no punctuation at all, not even periods. They just wrote Well, then, there have been some number of ancient languaguers around on this board. I’ve seen a number of posts with no punctuation, capitalization, or consistently correct spelling!😛 ---
**Author:** ![YourAdHere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/65b543/32.png) [@YourAdHere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourAdHere)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/17 "2013-05-06T02:03:11Z")
Somebody mentioned it earlier in the thread, but usually they reckoned years by who were the consuls that year. For instance in “The Gallic Wars” Julius Caesar writes: “M. Messala, et [P.] M. Pisone consulibus…” (when Marcus (?) Messala and Piso were the consuls…" . It’s almost always two different guys every year. Maybe it got harder to keep track of stuff before living memory, but maybe people kept better track of who the consuls were mentally because of that, especially for important years. A Latin joke was “Iulio Caesareque consulibus” - ‘when Julius and Caesar were consuls’ (because he dominated so much the other guy basically didn’t matter ). In all of book one of “The Gallic Wars” there is not a single dash or hyphen in the Latin, at least not that I could find. I would imagine they would use a preposition like ad or per, or one of their many, more specific than single words in English, time related adverbs or conjunctions. ---
**Author:** ![YourAdHere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/65b543/32.png) [@YourAdHere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YourAdHere)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/18 "2013-05-06T02:07:38Z")
I might take that back about Latin having many time related adverbs which were more specific than single words in English. I forgot about all the ‘heretofore’ and thereunder type words ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/date-ranges-in-real-roman-numerals/657542/19 "2013-05-06T05:01:42Z")
> [@YourAdHere](#): > > For instance in “The Gallic Wars” Julius Caesar writes: > “M. Messala, et [P.] M. Pisone consulibus…” (when Marcus (?) Messala and Piso were the consuls…" . It always struck me how similar this is to Americans dating things by Presidential administrations. The OP would really be on the **Baal** if they did something similar with their logo Easter egg: Latinize a President’s name and use a similar construction to the above.