# David B, I'd like to discuss something with you. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157 "2003-02-14T21:33:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/41 "2003-02-15T03:23:02Z")
**Lib** , > [@](#): > > **Believe me, I’m not taking AirmanDoors’ side because we’re buddies or anything. I mean, he has made plain that I am despicable to him.** Boy, I hope you don’t mean that. I have no problem with you whatsoever. My “yellow bastard” insult meant exactly what you thought it meant. Even if he were referring to the entire Air Force and not just the people in it, I still challenge him to go to Lackland AFB where people are going through some pretty rigorous training in order to become airmen and say that to those people. If he’s unwilling, I repeat my claim of cowardice. I would not say something like that ordinarily, but his appalling statement requires a strong and suitable response. **Squink** , > [@](#): > > **But would you have, without David B.'s advice ? > You’re being pretty cheeky about this, given that the mod in question was just doing his fucking job ! If you still feel wronged, why not take on Colinito67 ? He’s the Osama to David B.'s Saddam.** I’m airing a legitimate grievance. I was willing to let it end in that thread, but after my warning, it became an issue of acceptable behavior on the SDMB. Of course I wouldn’t apologize for my comment, in fact, I’ve reiterated it here. I’m only sorry that I said it in GD where it wasn’t acceptable. I don’t think it’s necessary to Pit him about this. You all know what I think. I think he does, too. In any event, whatever excuse you come up with, inferring that the USAF consists of murderers is reprehensible without evidence to the contrary. Good luck proving that. We’re people and citizens, just like everyone else. For people who think that Basic changes people, it does, but not to the extent that people become “brainwashed”. I always laugh at stuff like that. We are simply a representative sample of society in general, no more, no less. We’re hardly “murderers”, and for him to say so insults me and my brothers and sisters who put the uniform on every day, in addition to all of you who have been in the military and those who support their family members and friends when they go off to do a tough job. I’m sure none of you think that your family members are murderers, do you? Of course not. Yet you support the jerkwater who said it by saying that he wasn’t referring to me in particular, deflecting the magnitude of what he said. **Chumpsky** [did this once](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2628192#post262892) as well, and my feelings on the matter were [just as strong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2688794#post2688794) then as they are now. I will not ever tolerate those kinds of comments made about the military unless and until they are warranted. Period. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/42 "2003-02-15T05:22:38Z")
Airman, you’re missing the point. His opinion was reprehensible, but didn’t break the rules of the board. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/43 "2003-02-15T05:48:10Z")
**Airman** , I completely sympathize with your feelings on this matter. I would be pissed, too. In fact, I wish that civilians were more aware and appreciative of the difficulties and sacrifices our soldiers must make. After one of our planes went down in China, and then particularly after 9-11, I was hoping that one of our leaders would say something along the lines of…“If you see a man or woman in uniform, anywhere in the world, identify yourself as an American and tell them how proud you are of them, and how grateful you are that they are serving our country.” I strongly believe that we should respect our soldiers (and express it) even if we oppose the war (or conflict). On the other hand, there really is nothing to be done about people making absurd claims. I don’t know what you can do to “never tolerate those kinds of comments,” except 1. pit the guy 2. ignore the guy 3. explain to the guy slowly and carefully that it is in fact those “murderers”, as he calls them, who are protecting his right to say such nonsense. Anyway, my 2 cents. And thanks for the job you’re doing out there. ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/44 "2003-02-15T06:06:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > **I still challenge him to go to Lackland AFB where people are going through some pretty rigorous training in order to become airmen and say that to those people.** You were going WAY to soft on the guy. The guys and gals at Lackland are young, and fit, but a little wet behind the ears (I’ve plenty of them on liberty down in SA- they’re all so young & wide-eyed). I challenge him to walk into any VA hospital and repeat his diatribe. I’d be willing to bet that he wouldn’t be able to leave without assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/45 "2003-02-15T06:15:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ScoobyTX \* > \*\*I challenge him to walk into any VA hospital and repeat his diatribe. I’d be willing to bet that he wouldn’t be able to leave without assistance. \*\* So wait, if he finds the military to be an immoral career choice, how will being physically assaulted by members of that profession affect his opinion of it? In fact, won’t violence inflicted on him by a group he already believes to be violent reinforce his opinions about that group? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/46 "2003-02-15T06:30:13Z")
I doubt Scooby’s postulated result would be the actual result. More likely, he’d get laughed at by the assembled Veterans. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/47 "2003-02-15T06:35:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ScoobyTX \* > \*\*You were going WAY to soft on the guy. The guys and gals at Lackland are young, and fit, but a little wet behind the ears (I’ve plenty of them on liberty down in SA- they’re all so young & wide-eyed). > > I challenge him to walk into any VA hospital and repeat his diatribe. I’d be willing to bet that he wouldn’t be able to leave without assistance. \*\* Don’t get me wrong, I don’t agree with the man’s views, but these silly threats of violence are just playing into his hands. If you really are fighting for his rights to say things that enrage you (and you are) then there’s no call for kicking his ass when he says them. **Airman** , I am proud to have you out there defending me, but you were more out of line than him. You both called each other names, but you made threats of violence. Also, he was being ignorant and you could have helped to fight that. You shouldn’t have let him get your goat like that. Haj ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/48 "2003-02-15T12:45:35Z")
Calling members of the USAF “murderers” offended me deeply. My late BIL was a much decorated, honored and honorable member of the USAF; a fighter pilot who went where his Government sent him and who put his life on the line for that Government and, by extension, me and all the rest of us. He was a well educated man who provided for his wife and children. He was quiet, thoughtful, moral and deeply patriotic. That said, his patriotism was personal and private–he did not wrap himself in the flag. He served in the Korean conflict and he served three tours in Vietnam. He was one of the best men I have ever known and he most certainly was not a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/49 "2003-02-15T14:48:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by squeegee \* > \*\*Airman, you’re missing the point. His opinion was reprehensible, but didn’t break the rules of the board. \*\* Actually, you’re missing the point. I’d like to see someone who makes the rules tell me whether he broke the rules or not. That’s why this thread is addressed to **David B**. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/50 "2003-02-15T14:51:36Z")
Airman, Since you’re here, I just wanted to say how glad I am that you cleared up my misunderstanding. I’ve always been an admirer of yours, and I was sad when I thought it was not reciprocal. Healing is a beautiful thing. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/51 "2003-02-15T15:06:41Z")
> [@](#): > > _Airman Doors, USAF_ > I’d like to see someone who makes the rules tell me whether he broke the rules or not. That’s why this thread is addressed to David B. Bull. You could have emailed him. You wanted to make a little speech. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/52 "2003-02-15T15:17:11Z")
Actually, I thought the response would be beneficial to all of us. ---
**Author:** ![Witch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Witch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Witch)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/53 "2003-02-15T17:09:49Z")
As the daughter of an airman, I’d like to thank you for your service to my country **Airman**. **Colinito67** ’s comment is an indictment of his character, not yours. In any case, it was grossly inappropriate and IMHO should have been addressed in at LEAST as a strong a manner as your comment was. I’m truly interested to see what **David B.**'s rationale for his decision is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/54 "2003-02-15T17:48:29Z")
having just read the thread, I have to say that all those jumping on **Colinit067** are completely FULL OF SHIT! He said that technology has made _us_ murderers. _Us collectively_ as a country. We now have the ability to lob missiles from a safe distance and reign down hell on copmpletely innocent people. Targeting civilians _is_ murder! We share collective responsiblity as a nation for the murder of civilians. You can agree or disagree that that is what we are doing, but there was no specific insult, implied or otherwise, aimed at **Airman**. Airman was totally out of line and was treated exactly the way he should have been. We need to get off this childish, knee-jerk reactionism to every perceived criticism of the military, no matter how generic that criticism is. This whole “support the troops” bullshit should be codified as a correlary of Godwin. Whenever you’re losing an argument about US military action, accuse the other guy of hating soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/55 "2003-02-15T18:12:15Z")
You’re kidding, right? If you’re not, then please address my post [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2996163#post2996163) so that I may be enlightened as to how we’re targeting civilians. So I certainly disagree with you, and am asking for you, as one of the two idiots leveling this charge, to provide some substance to it. This isn’t an “agree/disagree” kind of thing. Either you have some proof that we’re targeting civilians, or you don’t. If you do, cough it up. If you don’t, then your charge is baseless, no matter what your fucking opinion is. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/56 "2003-02-15T18:18:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*We now have the ability to lob missiles from a safe distance and reign down hell on copmpletely innocent people. Targeting civilians _is_ murder! \*\* First of all, we’re not going to be targeting civilians. That would be totally counter to the goal of setting up a new, pro-U.S. government over there. It’s the terrorists who target civilians. Even the most cynical among us have to realize that we wouldn’t want to waste a multi-million dollar cruise missile on anything other than military targets. Secondly, these technologically advanced weapons make it much more likely that we will hit our targets, military installations and not cities full of civilians. This will cause much less innocent death than, say, randomly pitching a SCUD into a city or gassing a tent city full of one’s own citizens. Haj ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/57 "2003-02-15T18:23:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **He said that technology has made _us_ murderers. _Us collectively_ as a country. We now have the ability to lob missiles from a safe distance and reign down hell on copmpletely innocent people. Targeting civilians _is_ murder! We share collective responsiblity as a nation for the murder of civilians.** So, does the entire world have bloody hands due to civilian deaths from the 1991 police action sanctioned by the UN? Is it restricted to citizens of only those countries who were members of the Security Council? Only those who voted for the action? Only citizens of the permenant members, any one of which could have vetoed the action? Where does the collective guilt lie? Maybe it should be put on Iraq. They are the ones who violated the letter and spirit of the Geneva Convention by siting miltary assets within civilian areas and using miltary command and control bunkers as air-raid shelters for noncombatants. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/58 "2003-02-15T18:38:33Z")
Everybody, please read my post again. I did not say that we _were_ targeting civilians\*, I said that we _could_. and that _if_ we did, it would be murder. I was only trying to elucidate the original post that set off all this flaming. **Colinito67** said that **if** America targets civilians, then **we** , as a **country** would share some collective guilt. Whether we are or not in fact _doing that_ is an issue I have not weighed in on. Thec crux of this thread is about whether or not Colinito67 violated GD rules by personally insulting another poster. He was speaking rhetorically about collective national culpability for civilian deaths. That is a valid GD topic and is only a personal insult of **Airman** by the most tortured sophistry. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/59 "2003-02-15T18:49:53Z")
**Diogenes** , you are full of shit, or maybe you didn’t read what was posted inthe original thread > [@](#): > > USAF. that says it all. technology has made war immoral. “Shock and Awe.” We are going to purposefully target civilians. “There won’t be a safe place in Baghdad.” > murderers. He wasn’t using conditionals, nor did he say we, Americans, share collective guilt. He accused the USAF, a class that includes **AirmanDoors** , of purposely targeting civilians and thus of being murderers. Our military does NOT TARGET CIVILIANS, and for you to defend the asshole who made the accusation makes you look as bad as he. I know **AirmanDoors** and a sweeter, more decent guy you could not hope to meet. For you to accuse him as a member of the USAF of being complicit in war crimes is fucking wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/60 "2003-02-15T18:55:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Everybody, please read my post again. I did not say that we _were_ targeting civilians, I said that we _could_. and that _if_ we did, it would be murder. Oh, well isn’t that meaningless, you twit. I own a car. I _could_ use it to run over little children at the playground. So what? Does that make owning a car bad? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157.md?page=4)