# David B, I'd like to discuss something with you. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157 "2003-02-14T21:33:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/61 "2003-02-15T18:55:08Z")
> [@](#): > > USAF. that says it all. technology has made war immoral. “Shock and Awe.” We are going to purposefully target civilians. “There won’t be a safe place in Baghdad.” > murderers. The “USAF” part in this quote refers to **Airman** ’s full user name, **Airman Doors, USAF**. He was calling the good Airman a murderer. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/62 "2003-02-15T18:57:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _Gobear_ > I know AirmanDoors and a sweeter, more decent guy you could not hope to meet. For you to accuse him as a member of the USAF of being complicit in war crimes is fucking wrong. Goddamnit, Gobear, I accused him of no such thing. My father was career Air Force and was in Southeast Asia during Viet Nam. Practically every male in my family, including me, is or has been in the military. _I never said_ we were targeting civilians. My point is only that saying America, as a whole, would be culpable for civilian casualties is _not the same_ as a personal insult of **Airman**. I’m only talking about GD rules. I don’t give a shit about the larger topic. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/63 "2003-02-15T19:00:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > This whole “support the troops” bullshit should be codified as a correlary of Godwin. Whenever you’re losing an argument about US military action, accuse the other guy of hating soldiers. We don’t need to _accuse_ you of hating soldiers **Diogenes**. It’s quite clear that you do, if you would rather have 1,000 of them die than one Iraqi child. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/64 "2003-02-15T19:03:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _Debaser_ > Oh, well isn’t that meaningless, you twit. > > I own a car. I could use it to run over little children at the playground. So what? Does that make owning a car bad? What are you fucking talking about? I never said _anything_ “made us bad.” > [@](#): > > _hajario_ > The “USAF” part in this quote refers to Airman’s full user name, Airman Doors, USAF. He was calling the good Airman a murderer. The way I read it, he was using USAJF as a form of address, but he specifically said “ **we** are going to purposefully target civilians…” _we_, not _you_. And, again, whether we are or or not going to target civilians is irrelevant to whether Colinto violated GD rules. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/65 "2003-02-15T19:05:29Z")
I’ve _been_ in the military, **Debaser**. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/66 "2003-02-15T19:09:22Z")
Forgot the link to the [1,000 US soldiers to 1 Iraqi baby thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162402&perpage=50&pagenumber=2) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Goddamnit, Gobear, I accused him of no such thing. Yes you did. One hour and 15 minutes ago you said this: > [@](#): > > I have to say that all those jumping on Colinit067 are completely FULL OF SHIT! > He said that technology has made us murderers. Us collectively as a country. We now have the ability to lob missiles from a safe distance and reign down hell on copmpletely innocent people. \*\*Targeting civilians is murder! We share collective responsiblity as a nation for the murder of civilians. \*\* You say that those jumping on Colinit are full of shit, and then repeat his claims that technology has made us murderers, collectively as a country, on innocent people. It is obvious what your meaning is here. I would like to know what civilians we all share responsibility for the murder of. :wally ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/67 "2003-02-15T19:10:07Z")
> [@](#): > > My point is only that saying America, as a whole, would be culpable for civilian casualties is not the same as a personal insult of Airman. Did you even read the quote that started this ruckus which I posted for you? When he said, “murderers” he was NOT referring to the culpability of America as a whole, but to the USAF, of which **AirmanDoorsUSAF** is a member. > [@](#): > > I never said we were targeting civilians. You didn’t say it, but you are defending the guy who did. If this jerk had said that US soldiers in the Gulf War targeted civilians, would you feel personally insulted or not? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/68 "2003-02-15T19:10:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*We don’t need to _accuse_ you of hating soldiers **Diogenes**. It’s quite clear that you do, if you would rather have 1,000 of them die than one Iraqi child. \*\* he actually said no such thing. and see, this is the difference - you’re specifying **Diogenes** the poster as having these intentions/feelings (incorrectly, but still specifying) whereas the poster of the original complaint specified a group, yes, of which **Airman** is a member, but again, according to the GD rules, **personal** insults aren’t allowed. Nothing is said about gratuitous, erroneous, vile **generalized group** insults. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/69 "2003-02-15T19:11:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I’ve _been_ in the military, **Debaser**. \*\* I know. I’m not saying I understand you. Maybe you’re some sort of self loather on a guilt trip. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/70 "2003-02-15T19:12:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **He wasn’t using conditionals, nor did he say we, Americans, share collective guilt. He accused the USAF, a class that includes AirmanDoors, of purposely targeting civilians and thus of being murderers.** He said, “ **We** are going to purposefully target civilians.” Unless he, too, is a member of the USAF, then I would have to interpret his “we” as a collective “we”. He didn’t say “ **You** are going to purposefully target civilians,” or “ **They** are going to purposefully target civilians.” Regardless of the factuality of the statement, I don’t see him singling out either **Airman Doors** or even the USAF as murderers. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/71 "2003-02-15T19:19:24Z")
**gobear** do you not note the inconsistency that you’re espousing??? (paraphrased) “no, he’s not claiming that Americans (of which Airman is one) is guilty of this vile thing, he’s claiming that UASF (of which Airman is one) is guilty of this vile thing, therefore he’s claiming that Airman personally is guilty of this vile thing”. we can resent like hell, feel insulted, disprove, argue against etc that inclusion in that group means that we take on all characterisitics/ blames of that group, we can argue, resent like hell, feel insulted, disprove etc that the original characterization of that group is wrong etc. \*\*but \*\* it ain’t the same thing as claiming that you, personally, because you’re a member of that group are also guilty of that vile thing. at least in reference to ’ breaking the rules in GD’ is concerned. which is, again, the subject of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/72 "2003-02-15T19:22:33Z")
> [@](#): > > _Debaser_ > You say that those jumping on Colinit are full of shit, and then repeat his claims that technology has made us murderers, collectively as a country, on innocent people. It is obvious what your meaning is here. > > I would like to know what civilians we all share responsibility for the murder of. Let’s examine the two sentences which you bolde in my statement above. 1. _“Targeting civilians is murder!”_ What’s the problem here? This is a true statement, is it not? Are you saying it’s _not_ murder? I didn’t say that we _were_ doing this, I was saying that, in a vaccuum, it’s wrong to target civilians. 2. _“We share collective responsiblity as a nation for the murder of civilians.”_ Again, what;s wrong with this statement? I didn’t say that we _had_ murdered civilians, only that we are responsible if we _do_. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/73 "2003-02-15T19:24:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > he actually said no such thing. Yes he did. _Diogenes in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162402&perpage=50&pagenumber=2):_ > [@](#): > > I say it’s better for a thousand American soldiers to die than one Iraqi child. Not a lot of room for interpretation of this statement. When people start flaming him for it we get this statement from him: > [@](#): > > Why? What’s wrong with this statement? The Americans have made a choice to be there. Iraqi children are innocent. Tell me why someone who was born on this piece of dirt is automatically better than someone who’s born on that piece of dirt. I’m not saying I want American soldier’s to die, I’m saying that killing innocent children is even worse. After about a half dozen posts, **Diogenes** does finally get it and apoligizes here: > [@](#): > > **Maybe it was over the top to say a thousand American soldiers** , so I’ll just revise it to say that, in a vaccuum, I think that the death of child in war is worse than the life of a soldier, and their respective nationalites are irrelevant. Ya. _Maybe_ it was a little over the top. Jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/74 "2003-02-15T19:25:48Z")
He called Airman a murderer. He said that USAF says it all. Murderers. He called Airman Doors, USAF a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/75 "2003-02-15T19:27:47Z")
**Debaser** - my comment to you here was based on your statements here and his statements here. I wasn’t party to that other thread, nor had it been linked. if you’d included that in your statement here, I’d have understood that you’re bringing stuff in from a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/76 "2003-02-15T19:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > (paraphrased) “no, he’s not claiming that Americans (of which Airman is one) is guilty of this vile thing, he’s claiming that UASF (of which Airman is one) is guilty of this vile thing, therefore he’s claiming that Airman personally is guilty of this vile thing”. There’s no inconsistency. If the offending person had said “Americans”, the charge is just more liberal chestbeating becuase the target is too diffuse. But accusing the profession to which one belongs of being criminal is a lot more specific. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/77 "2003-02-15T19:30:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > I was willing to let it end in that thread, but after my warning, it became an issue of acceptable behavior on the SDMB. Of course I wouldn’t apologize for my comment, in fact, I’ve reiterated it here. I’m only sorry that I said it in GD where it wasn’t acceptable. > > In any event, whatever excuse you come up with, inferring that the USAF consists of murderers is reprehensible without evidence to the contrary. Good luck proving that. You’re the one exhibiting contemptible behavior here. I’ve made no excuse for Colinito67’s offensive remarks. On the other hand, you seem to grasping at any sleazy rhetorical device you can find in order to deflect responsibility for your own assinine behavior. This isn’t a black and white Colinto/Airman\* dichotomy, and it’s dishonest to try to paint it those terms. * * * - It might have been, if you hadn’t overeacted so violently, but that’s mucked up the issue, and tainted your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/78 "2003-02-15T19:33:14Z")
\*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > [@](#): > > 1. _“Targeting civilians is murder!”_ What’s the problem here? This is a true statement, is it not? Are you saying it’s _not_ murder? I didn’t say that we _were_ doing this, I was saying that, in a vaccuum, it’s wrong to target civilians. Refer back to my running over children in the playground argument. If I say “ **Diogenes** owns a big car! Running over children in the playground is **wrong**!!! **Diogenes** is responsible for children run over in the playground by his car!” I am not directly accusing you of anything, right? But, what am I inferring? Your statments about the US targeting civilians were the same. > [@](#): > > 1. _“We share collective responsiblity as a nation for the murder of civilians.”_ Again, what;s wrong with this statement? I didn’t say that we _had_ murdered civilians, only that we are responsible if we _do_. It is logical to infer that there was some civilians that have been murdered for you to be saying this. Although, you never claimed it directly, it was clearly what you were meaning. Oh, and sorry, **wring**. I meant to include the link with my first post here. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/79 "2003-02-15T19:33:34Z")
**gobear, Airman** belongs to both groups. Again, the issue is what constitutes a warnable ‘personal insult’ in Great Debates at SDMB. and daily there are hugely insulting things said about damn near every group some one can (and does) belong in. And these are routinely not seen as personal insults. At the bar saying stuff about USAF to a guy in uniform, I agree they’d be correct in **assuming** a personal insult. however, in GD at SDMB, **personal** insults are exactly that. saying “you’re an idiot”, not “Americans are idiots”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/80 "2003-02-15T19:34:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _Debaser_ > I know. > > I’m not saying I understand you. Maybe you’re some sort of self loather on a guilt trip. I do not hate the military, **Debaser** , as I keep saying, I’m from a military family. I grew up on Air Force bases, I’ve served in the Navy. I do not want sodiers to die. If you read my statements towards the end of the thread yo linked to, you will see that I backed off my initial hyperbole quite a bit and really made an attempt to revise and clarify my position. I am against the invasion of Iraq, but I don’t hold the individual troops responsible in any way. I think they’re the victims of some irresponsible policies by the Bush administration and I would rather they were back here with their families than sitting around in the sand waiting to maybe get nerve gas or anthrax thrown at them. I do think that our government has made some immoral choices, here and, of course, YMMV, but I don’t think that makes the soldiers, themselves immoral. I hope that’s clear to you, now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157.md?page=5)