# David B, I'd like to discuss something with you. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157 "2003-02-14T21:33:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/101 "2003-02-15T20:33:56Z")
absolutely. **Diogenes** ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/102 "2003-02-15T20:40:44Z")
> [@](#): > > _Gobear_ > Actually, I’d like to see some of you denounce the statement in the strongest possible terms, but that’s just wishful thinking. At this point I’m not entirely certain just what the statement _was_. I mean, I know what it _says_ but not what Colinito _meant_, exactly. If he is singling out the military specifically as murders, then I would he was wrong, and that Airman’s response was justified (in the proper forum). If he was making a more general statement about national collective guilt, then I would say that was a valid philosophical subject for debate, arguable, perhaps, but not an insult to Airman. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/103 "2003-02-15T20:41:29Z")
> [@](#): > > What Airman did was more of an obvious violation than what Colinito did. Bilge spew. > [@](#): > > **USAF. that says it all.** technology has made war immoral. “Shock and Awe.” We are going to purposefully target civilians. “There won’t be a safe place in Baghdad.” > **murderers.** ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/104 "2003-02-15T20:41:54Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **wring** _ > not me, gobear the fucking rules themselves. We have fucking rules? **Here?** :eek: I thought that was only the stuff from the Bible, and various penal codes, and suchlike. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/105 "2003-02-15T20:43:57Z")
> [@](#): > > What Airman did was more of an obvious violation than what Colinito did. I agree with **Beagle** , not even close. I’m still trying to figure out why **David B** didn’t smack down **both** of them. Much as Great Debates sometimes turns into a hockey game, it still doesn’t make any sense to punish the retaliator and let the instigator go unpunished. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/106 "2003-02-15T20:45:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*We have fucking rules? **Here?** :eek: I thought that was only the stuff from the Bible, and various penal codes, and suchlike. > > 😃 \*\* yep, and I understand that **Coldfire** has the video rights. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/107 "2003-02-15T20:57:35Z")
Since when is “murderer” an insult anyway? Over the top bullshit rhetoric, to be sure, but an insult? I don’t think so. Lawyers = thieves Politicians = crooks Doctors = quacks Military = murderers And life goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/108 "2003-02-15T21:06:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I agree with Beagle, not even close. I’m still trying to figure out why David B didn’t smack down both of them. Much as Great Debates sometimes turns into a hockey game, it still doesn’t make any sense to punish the retaliator and let the instigator go unpunished. Don’t credit me - I mean, unless this is some new wonderful tradition - I just bolded the text for **DtC**. Others pointed out that the “USAF. that says it all” part had to refer to the Airman - unless it was channeled through John Edward. But, since early on in the thread \*\*AirmanDoors,“USAF,”\*\*posted quite a bit, it was reasonable to assume that was what was meant. I can see how the mods. missed it. The usual convention of **bolding** the slandered poster’s name was not used, thus creating a stealth slander. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/109 "2003-02-15T23:09:39Z")
I just saw the use of Airman’s name as a form of address, i.e. “Airman, we are targeting civilians…” Looking at it now though, the use of the word “murderers” could be read as a specific charge against the poster being addressed. I still think it’s ambiguous, though, and if given a chance, Colinito may have clarified himself. In any case, it isn’t an easily catchable slur if one does not specifically have his attention drawn to it. Flaming in GD _is_ easy to catch and is a violation no matter what the provacation. I still would like to know why Airman didn’t report the post to the mods if he was offended. That _is_ what the function is for. He chose to provoke the mods, instead with a blatant violation of his own. Frankly, I’ve been more personally and openly attacked myself outside the pit without feeling the need to flame away in the wrong forum. If someone says something truly insulting in GD there are better ways to deal with it than Airman did. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/110 "2003-02-15T23:40:57Z")
Sorry, I can’t let this go unchallenged. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*… Our military does NOT TARGET CIVILIANS… \*\* Two words: Hiroshima, Nagasaki. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/111 "2003-02-15T23:51:06Z")
Yeah, I did point out in some thread about North Korea that we are the only nation to have ever engaged in a nuclear first strike, and that we have adamantly refused to rule out doing it again. Meantime, Originally posted by **monster104** : > [@](#): > > “technology has made war immoral.” Ok, so he thinks that because we have high tech weaponry, it makes it immoral for us to go to war. (I guess someone killed with a sword isn’t as killed as someone killed with a bomb? Or it’s somehow more right to make war “fair”?) As a dedicated fencer I’d just like to say that if we’d limited everybody to swords, we wouldn’t be having any of these problems at all. I remember reading about an Italian general who, having lost a number of his best swordsmen to musketeers firing from a distance, cut their hands off when his men overtook and captured them, he was so incensed at the idea of long distance killing. The sword is the antithesis of the weapon of mass destruction. Not that it will be reintroduced any time soon, unfortunately. Oh well. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/112 "2003-02-16T00:02:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Two words: Hiroshima, Nagasaki. You are [wrong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=127388). In any event, we are talking about the upcoming war and you’ll be sure to let the military Dopers know that they are expected to strafe women and children, bayonet babies, torture old people and so on. > [@](#): > > why on earth would you assume some political stance because of the interpretation of the rules of SDMB, GD forum? > > I’ve repeatedly indicated that generalized insults are insulting as well. just that they’re not against the fucking rules, as I’ve seen them explained Regardless of the rules debate, it seems to me that in this instance that the insult is so egregious that it requires condemnation. Calling the USAF murderers and accusing them of targeting civilians is disgusting and should not be countenaced or allowed to go unchallenged by civilized people. > [@](#): > > your comment here reminds me of the House UnAmerican Acitivities witch hunts where some one’s willingness to sign some statement or other was taken as the only evidence of loyalty to the US. Bullshit. All I said what that it would be nice to see some of the liberals step up and denounce this slur on our military. It’s possible to disagree with someone and still defend them from unwarranted attack. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/113 "2003-02-16T00:10:10Z")
For the sake of argument, say the US goes ahead with the planned invasion of Iraq against both, international law as interpreted by the UN and world opinion. It will then come as no surprise to anyone that during said invasion any number of innocent civilians will die as direct result of American military actions. So the question is, or should be, what will the ensuing casualties be called? The euphemistic ‘collateral damage’ that will surely surface in the pro-american/censored press or the nefarious ‘murder-victims’ label that will arise in the media outlets controlled by those who oppose the war? And I guess the answer lies in your individual perspective. The Fog of Morality if you will. The sad irony in all of this is that dead is dead, no matter what you call the people who killed them. Thin line between hero and murderer when it comes to war – and it is being blurred by as we speak. Ultimately, I think we’d all agree, _someone_ has to be responsible for the dead – it is not like they are going to die in a vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/114 "2003-02-16T00:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Ultimately, I think we’d all agree, someone has to be responsible for the dead – it is not like they are going to die in a vacuum Saddam Hussein. If he had played straight and obeyed the UN resolutions to give a full accounting of his WMDs, none of this would be happening. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/115 "2003-02-16T00:14:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*You are [wrong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=127388). So to prove my error, you point to a previous debate? Can I do the same to prove _you_ wrong? > [@](#): > > In any event, we are talking about the upcoming war and you’ll be sure to let the military Dopers know that they are expected to strafe women and children, bayonet babies, torture old people and so on. And thanks for putting words into my mouth. Fitting, I guess, since that seems to be what’s really being debated here. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/116 "2003-02-16T00:19:43Z")
> [@](#): > > So to prove my error, you point to a previous debate? Can I do the same to prove you wrong? Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been talked to death over the years, and there’s no need to hijack this thread to rehash the same old discussions. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/117 "2003-02-16T00:47:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Saddam Hussein. If he had played straight and obeyed the UN resolutions to give a full accounting of his WMDs, none of this would be happening. \*\* Surely under the scenario I proposed – which looks more and more likely – the US and whatever other Govs it can recruit (against the will of their own people if we’re to believe most of the polls taken world-wide) would be the ones indicting Saddam for said deaths. To the eyes of the UN and the rest of the world your actions would be illegal and by default, inmoral. Where that polarization might/will lead us, is a topic for a different thread. But it is happening already. In mind, anyone banging the drums of war – especially those that insist on ‘preemptive action’ – bears the ultimatate responsablity for the killings. In the case of the military, I am not so clear. I suppose they really have no choice (or gave up that choice when they enlisted) but to go ahead and follow orders. But I’d still differenciate between those that are pushing for this engament and those – and I suspect there are many – who will proceed from a sense of duty alone. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/118 "2003-02-16T00:51:41Z")
What you brought up was a thread about the relative utility of the A-bomb attack, which you could debate until Armageddon itself, because of the hypotheticals involved. This has zero to do with the central issue: the deliberate targetting of civilians. We did it before. In this specific instance. It refuted, directly, your invalid claim that our military doesn’t deliberately target civilians. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/119 "2003-02-16T00:53:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been talked to death over the years, and there’s no need to hijack this thread to rehash the same old discussions. \*\* Agreed. Then you cannot make the statement that our military does not, or has not, targeted civilians. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157/120 "2003-02-16T00:58:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Agreed. Then you cannot make the statement that our military does not, or has not, targeted civilians. Those were intended to end the war, not to kill civilians. You sound as if our troops deliberately kill noncombatants in every conflict. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-b-id-like-to-discuss-something-with-you/155157.md?page=7)