# David Brooks and his fellow travelers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522 "2016-08-21T17:59:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/1 "2016-08-21T17:59:03Z")
“There comes a time when neutrality and laying low become dishonorable. If you’re not in revolt, you’re in cahoots. When this period and your name are mentioned, decades hence, your grandkids will look away in shame.” —David Brooks > **[Opinion | Trump’s Enablers Will Finally Have to Take a Stand (Published 2016)](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/05/opinion/trumps-enablers-will-finally-have-to-take-a-stand.html?_r=0)** > > His behavior has left them no more middle ground to keep dancing between embracing him and disowning him. I’m against Trump, spare me please. Again, I’m against Trump, I view his victory as a worst case scenario among plausible scenarios. The worst thing that the government has done in many years was the Iraq War of George W. Bush. This is likely going to be a true statement even if Trump wins and serves 8 years. David Brooks loved the Iraq war. It was the greatest thing ever for him and the many Republicans and hawkish Democrats that are appalled by Trump and suggest that supporting him will be akin to support for Hitler. 80 years hence, if someone’s great-great grandchildren discover that they supported the Iraq war and provided cover to its supporters, I surely hope that this will make the little bastards squirm much more than if they discovered a Trump supporter. The fact that over a decade later, the chearleaders of the Iraq War are still not ashamed to show their face in public is a failure of our society’s morality. They still occupy influential posts in government and media, and almost to a man are unrepentant. A lot of this is tied up with America’s military worship. In history this period is going to be identified by that characteristic. The idea that supporters of a blowhard xenophobe should be ashamed? Ok. How about the millions of people killed, maimed, displaced, oppressed, and driven into poverty by the comfy suburbanites of the United States War Party? David Brooks and the Never Trumpers are the people who should be exiled. Nearly all of them supported the Iraq War. Many of them don’t support Trump because of his occasional peaceful statement. David Brooks, leave us alone and write your apology to your future grandchildren…or one of the now living victims of your disregard for life. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/2 "2016-08-21T19:30:10Z")
That’s silly. Most people had good if erroneous reasons to support the Iraq War. They believed that there were weapons of mass destruction, because they were lied to. Only a select few who lied bear blame. There are no good reasons to be a Trump supporter. There is no one successfully lying about who he is or what he supports. To support him shows a lot of bad things about you. Being a Trump supporter is far, far worse than having supported the Iraq war back in the day, even if you believe the Iraq War was worse. (I personally am not so convinced that we wouldn’t get a worse war out of a Trump White House. He wants to ignore NATO allies and wants nukes on the table.) ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/3 "2016-08-21T20:20:43Z")
Even if you bought the lies-dubious- still are to blame for cheerleading war. Hm death or mean words. I choose mean words. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/4 "2016-08-21T20:32:25Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s silly. Most people had good if erroneous reasons to support the Iraq War. They believed that there were weapons of mass destruction, because they were lied to. Only a select few who lied bear blame. This. **WillFarnaby** is essentially putting the liars and the Lied-to on exactly the same footing. This is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/5 "2016-08-21T20:36:26Z")
This from the moron who calls Trump the [Peace Candidate.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=786691&highlight=trump) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/6 "2016-08-21T20:45:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s silly. Most people had good if erroneous reasons to support the Iraq War. They believed that there were weapons of mass destruction, because they were lied to. Only a select few who lied bear blame. I don’t really find either objectively worse, given the likely global clusterfuck that would occur in the event of a Trump presidency, but believing lies is not a sufficient excuse for supporting the Iraq War. A significant contingent of people knew they were lies and repeatedly pointed out that they were lies, and those people were ignored by people who were aching for revenge at the expense of common sense. I was just a young adult, 18, 19 years old, when all the 911/Iraq War shit went down, and even I saw the writing on the wall. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/7 "2016-08-21T20:48:31Z")
> [@](#): > > This from the moron who calls Trump the Peace Candidate. Trump’s pushing seventy, there must have been some time in his life that he pondered the advantages of not blowing things up. Even more so when those things are people. But I don’t think he has a center, no core. Sure that he has his moments. They are moments. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/8 "2016-08-21T21:00:18Z")
Well, we can be sure that if he started a war, it would be terrific. It would be, like the best war ever! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/9 "2016-08-21T21:01:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s silly. Most people had good if erroneous reasons to support the Iraq War. They believed that there were weapons of mass destruction, because they were lied to. As much as I hate to be a nattering nabob of negativity, I don’t believe it’s ever been more than a supposition/presumption that Bush lied to get us into the war. Proof, if such exists, would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/10 "2016-08-21T21:28:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As much as I hate to be a nattering nabob of negativity, I don’t believe it’s ever been more than a supposition/presumption that Bush lied to get us into the war. Proof, if such exists, would be helpful. Still holding out hope those WMD’s will be found? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/11 "2016-08-21T21:30:12Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This. > > **WillFarnaby** is essentially putting the liars and the Lied-to on exactly the same footing. This is wrong. Nope. Brooks and his gang are unrepentant. It has been known for years that they were lies, yet they double down on their evil destruction of society. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/12 "2016-08-21T21:35:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This from the moron who calls Trump the [Peace Candidate.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=786691&highlight=trump) Thanks for your excellent contribution, as usual. Keep trying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/13 "2016-08-21T21:47:01Z")
You make it too easy. It’s like being Barry Bonds at a slow-pitch baseball game. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/14 "2016-08-21T21:47:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As much as I hate to be a nattering nabob of negativity, I don’t believe it’s ever been more than a supposition/presumption that Bush lied to get us into the war. Proof, if such exists, would be helpful. I’ve never seen proof of what Bush knew. Do you at least agree that the Bush Administration as an entity lied? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/15 "2016-08-21T21:50:47Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Nope. Brooks and his gang are unrepentant. It has been known for years that they were lies… Uh, not to belabor the point, but know to whom? At the time of the war most of the world’s major powers (via their intelligence agencies) believed Iraq to possess WMDs. This included China, Russia, France, England and the U.S. Saddam Hussein himself took pains to create this belief to gain greater power and influence in the region, and he’d used them in the past against his own citizens. And yet according to the left, Bush, in a supposedly brilliant stroke of Machiavellian genius, knew all this wasn’t true and yet still masterfully misled Congress and the American people and a fair number of our international allies into attacking Iraq on the basis of a lie he concocted for no reason other than to attack it, all while being the most stupid man ever elected to the presidency. Again I ask, where’s the proof that “Bush lied”? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/16 "2016-08-21T21:54:55Z")
That was quite a thought provoking OP. Should I attack the gutless and honesty-challenged [David Brooks](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18845706&postcount=63) or the crackpot WillFarnaby? I can’t decide! ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/17 "2016-08-21T21:58:37Z")
Here is a timeline of the Bush administration’s efforts to go to war with Iraq. > **[Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/12/leadup-iraq-war-timeline/)** > > Mushroom clouds, duct tape, Judy Miller, Curveball. Recalling how Americans were sold a bogus case for invasion. It contains public statements by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfield &etc about the push to attack Saddam Hussein (some of which only became common knowledge later on.) It begins in the early 90’s with the first Gulf War. At that time, Cheney and his friends didn’t want any nation building in Iraq. Later in the decade, Cheney (who, you’ll recall, was connected with oil company Haliburton,) created a group called the Americans who made going to war with Iraq a political priority. Cheney in particular began scoping out the Iraq oilfields. To this end, Cheney hooked up with a con-man named [Ahmed Chalabi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi). Chalabi was an Iraqi politician who fed Cheney info on Iraq’s efforts to acquire WMDs and other justifications for attacking Saddam Hussein. Chalabi’s info, which was passed on to the others in the Bush admin, was discovered to be almost entirely falsified. Further evidence has since emerged that Chalabi was an Iranian agent, bent on causing problems for the US. Regardless of Chalabi’s dulplicity, Bush himself was always intent on going to war. Chalabi just provided the excuses. Going to war with Iraq was the subject of George Bush’s very first National Security Meeting. > [@](#): > > 1/30/01 Saddam’s removal is top item of Bush’s inaugural national security meeting. Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill later recalls, “It was all about finding a way to do it. The president saying, ‘Go find me a way to do this.’” [Date the public knew: 1/10/04] George W. Bush would go on to make multiple statements about his serious wish to attack Saddam Hussein: > [@](#): > > 2/16/01 Bush: “To send a clear signal to Saddam,” US and UK bomb targets near Baghdad. > > 8/10/01 Major air raid on Iraq. > > 9/11/01 Al Qaeda attacks. Minutes taken by a Rumsfeld aide five hours later: “Best info fast. Judge whether good enough [to] hit SH [Saddam Hussein] @ same time. Not only UBL [Usama bin Laden].” [Date the public knew: 9/4/02] > > 9/12/01 According to counterterror czar Richard Clarke, “[Bush] told us, ‘I want you, as soon as you can, to go back over everything, everything. See if Saddam did this.’” Told evidence against Al Qaeda overwhelming, Bush asks for “any shred” Saddam was involved. [Date the public knew: 3/22/04] > > 9/20/01 British PM Tony Blair advises Bush not to lose focus on Al Qaeda. Bush replies: “I agree with you, Tony. But when we have dealt with Afghanistan, we must come back to Iraq.” [Date the public knew: 5/1/04] > > 11/21/01 Bush collars Rumsfeld physically and asks: “What have you got in terms of plans for Iraq? What is the status of the war plan? I want you to get on it. I want you to keep it secret.”—Bob Woodward. [Date the public knew: 4/18/04] > > 1/29/02 Bush delivers “Axis of Evil” State of the Union. Speechwriter David Frum later says phrase was the fruit of being asked: “Can you sum up in a sentence or two our best case for going after Iraq?” [Date the public knew: 1/8/03] > > March 2002 “Fuck Saddam. We’re taking him out.”—Bush to Rice and three senators. [Date the public knew: 12/8/03] > > 8/20/02 “We may or may not attack. I have no idea yet.”—Bush. “There are Al Qaeda in Iraq…There are.”—Rumsfeld. > > 9/3/02 Bush asks skeptical congressional leadership to support action against Iraq. > > 9/7/02 Bush claims a new UN International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) report states Iraq is six months from developing a nuclear weapon. There is no such report. > > 9/12/02 Bush repeats aluminum-tube claim before UN General Assembly. > > 9/25/02 “You can’t distinguish between Al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror.”—Bush > > 9/26/02 In a Rose Garden speech, Bush says: “The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons.” > > 9/26/02 In a speech in Houston, Bush says of Saddam: “After all, this is a guy who tried to kill my dad.” > > 9/28/02 Bush’s address to nation: “The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons, is rebuilding the facilities to make more, and, according to the British government, could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order is given.” > > 10/7/02 Bush delivers a speech in which he says, “Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof—the smoking gun—that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.” Also says Iraq is exploring ways of using drones to target the US, although Iraq’s drones have a reach of only 300 miles. > > 10/16/02 Bush tells public, “I have not ordered the use of force. I hope the use of force will not become necessary.” > > 11/7/02 “War is not my first choice. It’s my last choice.”—Bush > > 12/31/02 “You said we’re headed to war in Iraq. I don’t know why you say that…I’m the person who gets to decide, not you.”—Bush to press corps > > 1/3/03 “The Iraqi regime is a threat to any American.”—Bush > > 1/11/03 Bush tells Saudi ambassador Prince Bandar that he plans to go to war two days before he tells Secretary Powell. [Date the public knew: 4/18/04] > > 1/28/03 In State of the Union, Bush says “the 16 words”: “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” Bush adds Saddam has “tried to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production” and has “mobile biological weapons labs.” > > 2/6/03 Reiterating Powell’s claim, Bush says an Iraqi drone loaded with bioweapons could strike US mainland. The US Air Force is on the record as saying that “the small size of Iraq’s new UAV strongly suggests a primary role of reconnaissance.” [Date the public knew: 9/26/03] > > 2/8/03 In radio address to the nation, Bush warns that “firsthand witnesses [read: Curveball] have informed us that Iraq has at least seven mobile factories” for germ warfare. (Note: Curveball, a guy named Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, worked for Ahmed Chalabi, funnelling disinformation to the Bush admin) I’m stopping here because the dog wants out but I could go on. I’m tried to limit that list to just things that Bush said, but if you view the whole list, you’ll see that a) Bush personally and repeatedly made false claims about the threat that Iraq posed and b) he also lied repeatedly about his plans to the American public. Do read the whole link. It includes the lies told by other Bush admin members as well as pushback from other sources about the weakness of the Bush case versus Iraq. George W. Bush was not the only liar pushing the Iraq war, but he managed the team, he called the shots, and he was right in there, taking his at-bats. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/18 "2016-08-21T21:59:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You make it too easy. It’s like being Barry Bonds at a slow-pitch baseball game. Tell us more about how Hillary is peaceful because it’s on her campaign website. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/19 "2016-08-21T22:01:11Z")
The facts were well known at the time, and many many of us were literally screaming them. Those who wanted to go to war anyway decided not to listen. They can not now use the excuse that they were lied to by a small cabal of scapegoats. They share complicity and have no hope of future vindication. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/20 "2016-08-21T22:02:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Uh, not to belabor the point, but know to whom? > > At the time of the war most of the world’s major powers (via their intelligence agencies) believed Iraq to possess WMDs. This included China, Russia, France, England and the U.S. Saddam Hussein himself took pains to create this belief to gain greater power and influence in the region, and he’d used them in the past against his own citizens. > > And yet according to the left, Bush, in a supposedly brilliant stroke of Machiavellian genius, knew all this wasn’t true and yet still masterfully misled Congress and the American people and a fair number of our international allies into attacking Iraq on the basis of a lie he concocted for no reason other than to attack it, all while being the most stupid man ever elected to the presidency. > > Again I ask, where’s the proof that “Bush lied”? Never said Bush lied. I said they were lies. Someone lied, it’s know to everyone now, and Brooks and Co. still love the destruction of a society. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522.md?page=2)