# David Brooks and his fellow travelers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522 "2016-08-21T17:59:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/41 "2016-08-22T02:30:29Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I don’t really find either objectively worse, given the likely global clusterfuck that would occur in the event of a Trump presidency, but believing lies is not a sufficient excuse for supporting the Iraq War. A significant contingent of people knew they were lies and repeatedly pointed out that they were lies, and those people were ignored by people who were aching for revenge at the expense of common sense. I was just a young adult, 18, 19 years old, when all the 911/Iraq War shit went down, and even I saw the writing on the wall. And I yet I was just a couple years younger and heard none of it. I didn’t hear about this whole lying aspect until around 2006, to be honest–when a lot of people said they’d known the whole time. Up until then, I thought Bush just had bad intelligence. I don’t doubt that people were saying things. I do doubt that they had the reach necessary to convince anyone who wasn’t already looking. And that would be most people. If Congress could find enough people who believed that, they wouldn’t have overwhelmingly voted for the war. But even if I grant that a lot of people knew, it still was nowhere near as clear as this case. There hasn’t even been an attempt to cover it up. Trump has been right out there saying the horrible things and revealing how horrible he is. His incompetence is open for all to see. His complete denial of all the morals that we share is plain. As long as they are mentally competent, I can’t chalk up support for Trump as ignorance. I can for the Iraq War. It was just too easy back then to believe the President. I know–I did. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/42 "2016-08-22T07:16:46Z")
First let’s dispense with the ignorance that Bush and Cheney did not knowingly lie. That the assessments of CIA were widely ignored in deference to Cheney’s hand-invented “intelligence” is too well demonstrated to require further discussion. The ignorant meme that Hillary is a war-monger becuase she voted for the 2002 Resolution is very tiring. [I already posted excerpts from her relevant Senate speech](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19517536&postcount=1). Evidently those complaining found even that short excerpt too tiring for their tiny brains; here’s an ever briefer summary: [QUOTE=Senator Clinton explaining her “Yea” vote] However, [an immediate attack on Iraq] is fraught with danger… If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us… So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack … on the present facts is not a good option… I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later… If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated… Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible. Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely … I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections. This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make – any vote that may lead to war should be hard – but I cast it with conviction. [/QUOTE] **Farnaby** ’s mental weakness is deep indeed, so I’m afraid he’ll be unable to read or understand even this briefer excerpt. My comments are directed at any sentient detractors who have stumbled into the thread. Although she doesn’t make this point, Senator Clinton’s reasoning might suggest that, even knowing that Bush-Cheney were lying and intent on a stupid war, the War Resolution might have been preferable to letting Bush-Cheney pursue an illegal war alone. But regardless of how one feels about the War Resolution, and giving full credit to the relatively few Americans who knew in advance what a blunder Bush’s invasion of Iraq could be, to accuse all Senators who voted “Yea” of being war mongers is just too stupid to rebut. Certainly it tells us little about Clinton, but a great deal about the morons who prattle this ignorant claim. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/43 "2016-08-22T07:31:42Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > No it wouldn’t. Yes, it would. Force is the only way it could be accomplished, which means war. Trump may well be too stupid to realize it, but that won’t make Mexico roll over and play dead when he decides to extort vast amounts of money out of them. No Mexican government could survive just submitting to Trump. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/44 "2016-08-22T07:36:18Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Is this correct? Mises I get. But I’m a little surprised if MfM thinks Hayek is a crackpot. Wrong, sure. Overzealous, certainly. But crackpot seems like a stretch. Can’t say I have a _positive_ opinion about Hayek, but I hates Mises to pieces! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/45 "2016-08-22T08:07:12Z")
Too bad you didn’t simulpost that with someone, **luc** ; you could have hollered “Jinx!” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/46 "2016-08-22T12:45:29Z")
**Will Farnaby** is still pissed off because years ago Brooks urged Republicans to drop their focus on limited government. And even worse, [he called for Barack Obama to run for President](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/19/opinion/19brooks.html?_r=0). ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/47 "2016-08-22T13:26:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You certainly did. And you had your ass handed to you in the process! Yes your citations of Hillary Clinton’s promotional brochures was absolutely devastating. Maybe next time you’ll cite the notes her grandmother wrote on her birthday cards and really slay me. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/48 "2016-08-22T13:28:17Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > **Will Farnaby** is still pissed off because years ago Brooks urged Republicans to drop their focus on limited government. And even worse, [he called for Barack Obama to run for President](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/19/opinion/19brooks.html?_r=0). I’d actually welcome an Obama run. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/49 "2016-08-22T13:29:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So when you call Trump the “peace candidate,” it’s not that YOU are lying. It’s that someone else lied, and you’re just passing it along? > > Wow, you really planned this whole thing out. Shouldn’t you be busy passing out cookies to neo-Nazis on the Maidan? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/50 "2016-08-22T13:31:40Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The real question is whether David Brooks will look his grandchildren in the eye and tell them he voted for a evil war based on a lie. > > The rest is mere posturing. Of course the years of doubling down on the atrocity after the lies had been made obvious shouldn’t cause them to bat an eye. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/51 "2016-08-22T13:35:27Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > First let’s dispense with the ignorance that Bush and Cheney did not knowingly lie. That the assessments of CIA were widely ignored in deference to Cheney’s hand-invented “intelligence” is too well demonstrated to require further discussion. > > The ignorant meme that Hillary is a war-monger becuase she voted for the 2002 Resolution is very tiring. [I already posted excerpts from her relevant Senate speech](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19517536&postcount=1). Evidently those complaining found even that short excerpt too tiring for their tiny brains; here’s an ever briefer summary: > > **Farnaby** ’s mental weakness is deep indeed, so I’m afraid he’ll be unable to read or understand even this briefer excerpt. My comments are directed at any sentient detractors who have stumbled into the thread. > > Although she doesn’t make this point, Senator Clinton’s reasoning might suggest that, even knowing that Bush-Cheney were lying and intent on a stupid war, the War Resolution might have been preferable to letting Bush-Cheney pursue an illegal war alone. But regardless of how one feels about the War Resolution, and giving full credit to the relatively few Americans who knew in advance what a blunder Bush’s invasion of Iraq could be, to accuse all Senators who voted “Yea” of being war mongers is just too stupid to rebut. > > Certainly it tells us little about Clinton, but a great deal about the morons who prattle this ignorant claim. Where did I say anything about Clinton? She has “repented”, no? Once again, you show poor reading comprehension. I’m specifically talking about the people like Brooks who stand by the slaughter of innocents. Of course, as usual, you neglect the actual victims. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/52 "2016-08-22T14:05:44Z")
I get a good chuckle out of Septimus. He sees a few key words and that prompts some canned diatribe that is kind of relevant to the general topic, but shows no evidence that he actually reads in the way a human does. Let’s try a few: Inflation Milton Bradley T_he Freedman_ George Clinton WAR Bush ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/53 "2016-08-22T16:04:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Shouldn’t you be busy passing out cookies to neo-Nazis on the Maidan? Shouldn’t you be at the black-tie RT dinner party along with the rest of Donald Trump’s campaign? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/54 "2016-08-22T16:20:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes, it would. Force is the only way it could be accomplished, which means war. Trump may well be too stupid to realize it, but that won’t make Mexico roll over and play dead when he decides to extort vast amounts of money out of them. No Mexican government could survive just submitting to Trump. Trump honestly thinks he’s going to renegotiate every agreement the United States has ever made and he thinks everyone else in the world will agree to new deals that leave them disadvantaged. He honestly doesn’t think he has to go to war with Mexico to get what he wants. Consider this exchange - from when Trump was talking about ditching our NATO allies if they don’t meet some new conditions (ie- fork over their protection money.) [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/us/politics/donald-trump-issues.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/us/politics/donald-trump-issues.html) > [@NYT article](#): > > Mr. Trump said he was convinced that he could persuade Mr. Erdogan to put more effort into fighting the Islamic State. But the Obama administration has run up, daily, against the reality that the Kurds — among the most effective forces the United States is supporting against the Islamic State — are being attacked by Turkey, which fears they will create a breakaway nation. > > Asked how he would solve that problem, Mr. Trump paused, then said: “Meetings.” I swear that Donald’s suffering some form of dementia. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/55 "2016-08-22T16:46:20Z")
David Brooks is one of those people whose support I welcome, but I would still hold at arm’s length. As one of those conservative-despised “intellectuals”, I’m sure he sees the pitchforks and torches in the mob of Tea Party lunatics coming for him should they ever completely take over the GOP. He’s doing this as a self-preservation tactic, nothing more, anyone can see that Trump’s going to lose badly. Like Ted Cruz, he’s positioning himself to say “I told you so” after the angry racist Trump supporters lose to their most hated foe. A real pivot would be to completely repudiate conservative Republican thought. Which brings me to this: > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > David Brooks, leave us alone and write your apology to your future grandchildren…or one of the now living victims of your disregard for life. You’re of the conservative/faux-libertarian bent. What I said about Brooks applies to you. If you think you and people like you are going to get a pass just because you have a couple of differences here and there with the main GOP platform, I’ve got news for you pal, you and your type are what enabled Trump and the Tea Party to take over the GOP. No amount of ranting against a couple of GOP collaborators will make you out to be different than them. You think [taxes are extortion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=690258). You think being [president is easy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=756437), like a company trying to keep market share. You think [Obama supports torture](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=678497). You somehow believe that Obama should appeal to your [personal standard of specific presidential qualifications](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=655594)when the other guy is much worse on pretty much everything. Your [lack of understanding of how money is valued](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=798797) is dangerously ignorant. In short, until you stop trying to pretend to be the smartest guy in the room by railing against a few universally loathed positions Trump has, you’re part of the problem, even if you temporarily suppress that to vote Not Trump in the election ---
**Author:** ![aliensshow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@aliensshow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aliensshow)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/56 "2016-08-22T17:10:52Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How about the millions of people killed, maimed, displaced, oppressed, and driven into poverty by the comfy suburbanites of the United States War Party? Your Muslim terrorist heroes should stop making that region of the world an unending hellscape then. ---
**Author:** ![aliensshow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@aliensshow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aliensshow)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/57 "2016-08-22T17:17:26Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s silly. Most people had good if erroneous reasons to support the Iraq War. They believed that there were weapons of mass destruction, because they were lied to. Only a select few who lied bear blame. > > There are no good reasons to be a Trump supporter. Since it angers you, there’s one. Try not to cry 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![aliensshow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@aliensshow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aliensshow)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/58 "2016-08-22T17:19:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Uh, not to belabor the point, but know to whom? > > At the time of the war most of the world’s major powers (via their intelligence agencies) believed Iraq to possess WMDs. They know. ---
**Author:** ![aliensshow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@aliensshow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aliensshow)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/59 "2016-08-22T17:20:43Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > David Brooks is one of those people whose support I welcome, but I would still hold at arm’s length. As one of those conservative-despised “intellectuals”, I’m sure he sees the pitchforks and torches in the mob of Tea Party lunatics coming for him should they ever completely take over the GOP. He’s doing this as a self-preservation tactic, nothing more, anyone can see that Trump’s going to lose badly. Like Ted Cruz, he’s positioning himself to say “I told you so” after the angry racist Trump supporters lose to their most hated foe. A real pivot would be to completely repudiate conservative Republican thought. Which brings me to this: > > You’re of the conservative/faux-libertarian bent. What I said about Brooks applies to you. If you think you and people like you are going to get a pass In case you’re confused, no one gives a fuck who you give a “pass” to. HTH. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522/60 "2016-08-22T17:31:54Z")
I care. **YogSothoth** is a cool dude. And on the other hand, you haven’t figured out how to multiquote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-brooks-and-his-fellow-travelers/763522.md?page=4)