# David Hicks US counsel may be sacked. WTF?? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 4, 2007, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567 "2007-03-04T19:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/21 "2007-03-06T13:29:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _kambuckta_ > There is no way that Howard will be able to swallow such a bitter pill, regardless of how politically expedient it would be in the run up to the election. And I doubt it would be a valuable act anyway: releasing Hicks would further prove that the charges and judicial processes were a sham, and that Howard has for FIVE years allowed and encouraged the screw-ups. The electorate is not that dumb. > > And as you well know, Howard is a proud man who would rather gnaw his arm off than admit that he was wrong. But that’s not how it would go down, **kam**. The government wouldn’t say it had been wrong. It would say that it had always been concerned about Hicks’ detention and that the process had taken too long and out of concern for Hicks they were asking for him to be released. Further, they would claim that it was a _vindication_ of their stance in insisting in a speedy resolution of the matter. You’d get something like: “We have always been concerned to protect Mr Hicks’ interests at the same time as wanting to give him a chance to clear his name of the serious allegations levelled against him.\* We think the process has taken too long (partly due to foolish people claiming to act in his interests), and we’ve said for a long time that we have a deadline for the US to have hearings. They haven’t been met and we have asked to the US to release him to Australia. Those who have criticized the government’s position look very silly now: it is only due to the government’s serious engagement with the US on these matters that Mr Hicks’ release has been secured . That they would have prematurely demanded his release before the process had been given a chance is a reflection on their lack of experience in these grave matter. The government will apply for a control order for Mr Hicks: we still think he is a dangerous man with much to answer for, but we think the process has been too much delayed for it to be fair for him and his family.” The government will ask for his release in a heartbeat if they think it is their best option politically. And yes, the public have been that stupid in the past. \*[sub]Not a parody. Mr Ruddock has claimed that bringing him back would deny him the chance to clear his name.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/22 "2007-03-06T23:18:29Z")
[QUOTE=hawthorne] The key thing here is that to be of use to the Australian government, _this absolutely has to happen before the next election._ Before Christmas really. [/QUOTE] I agree with most of what you say with one exception. I think all Howard needs to achieve by election time is a definite timetable. As long as he can go into an election saying that Hicks has a trial date, he’ll be able to deflect criticism. Further, he will brush aside any delays in getting to that trial date on the basis that it is Mori/Hicks’ fault for continually objecting to the proposed trial procedure. It would suit Howard for Hicks to be released just after the election. Either so that it happens early in Howard’s next term (when an election is a long way off) or on Labor’s watch. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/23 "2007-03-27T05:43:23Z")
Well, Hicks has pleaded guilty (to “providing material support for terrorism”) in an arrangement that will probably allow him to leave Guantanamo and return to Australia. He will be sentenced later in the week, and if the sentence in longer than “time served,” he will get to complete it in an Australian prison. [Link](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1882672.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/24 "2007-03-27T07:34:58Z")
American Justice [sup]TM[/sup] – leading the Free World [sup]TM[/sup]. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/25 "2007-03-27T10:12:38Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] Well, why should you? After all, this is just some guy your government took into custody from a Northern Alliance warlord who was paid to hand over Taliban, and who swept up and handed over anyone they thought the credulous American forces might accept. This is just some guy who’s a citizen of one of America’s closest allies in the “war on terror,” and who was incarcerated for five years before any charges were filed. This is just some guy who is the _first_ Guantanamo detainee to be formally charged under the new US military commission system, set up last year after the Bush’s administration’s previous commissions were found by the US Supreme Court to violate the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions. This is just some guy who is being charged with providing material support for terrorism, despite the fact that this crime was not actually passed into American law until last year, four years after his capture. The other charge against him, which was attempted murder, has been dismissed after the US Military Commission judge decided that it could not be sustained. Why should you know about this case at all? There’s no reason at all that it should be a major story for the American media. [/QUOTE] I know you mean well, but cut us some slack, will ya? It’s March Madness, and we all have money invested in office pools. Anna Nicole Smith’s autopsy is being released. Howard Stern is trying to sabotage American Idol. Rob and Amber have been eliminated from the Amazing Race. And Mel Gibson has had another outburst. One would think you could muster a wee bit of empathy. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/26 "2007-03-27T11:03:55Z")
Article 88? Never in all my life have even heard of a prosecution under Article 88! Hell! I gave a kid an Article 15 for Abuse of a Public Animal and the JAG called me to ask me to stop reading the MCM. Article 88? Sounds like the purest form of abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/27 "2007-03-27T13:48:23Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] According to the [_NYT:_](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/world/asia/05hicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) [/QUOTE] Hmm. Guess that means _I_ can’t represent him either. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/28 "2007-03-27T13:54:15Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Article 88? Never in all my life have even heard of a prosecution under Article 88! Hell! I gave a kid an Article 15 for Abuse of a Public Animal and the JAG called me to ask me to stop reading the MCM. Article 88? Sounds like the purest form of abuse. [/QUOTE] Careful, you’ll give them ideas. “using contemptuous language towards the President” could also be held to be Abuse of a Public Animal. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/29 "2007-03-27T16:49:44Z")
One thing I heard pointed out on the radio the other day: “Providing material support for terrorism” is illegal under U.S. law but is **not** a crime under the laws of war. And since this military commission’s jurisdiction only extends to war crimes . . . ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/30 "2007-03-27T17:07:37Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I’d be interested to know how far this rule goes. It seems like there’d be conflict between the rule of not using contemptuous language and disagreeing with the accusations in court. “The charges against my client are ludicrous!” - pretty drama’d up, but would it be acceptable? [/QUOTE] This sort of thing is a part of my whole complaint about the system of military justice. Those bringing the charge are in the Executive Department; as are those trying the charge; those defending against the charge; and those to whom a conviction is appealed. Where is the impartial review? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/31 "2007-03-27T17:09:44Z")
In addition, punishment of the Major is punishment of the defendant by removing as his counsel someone who is intimately familiar with the case and all that has happened to date. If you want to punish the Major, let him finish the process and then throw the book at him. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/32 "2007-03-27T17:25:19Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] Is Anna Nicole still dead? I am not sure, I don’t think the news has covered the story in the last 30 seconds and you never know when a meteor is going to come close to the earth and re-animate her corpse. [/QUOTE] C’mon, really, what are the chances of that happening a second time. Pshaw! ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/33 "2007-03-27T17:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I know you mean well, but cut us some slack, will ya? It’s March Madness, and we all have money invested in office pools. Anna Nicole Smith’s autopsy is being released. Howard Stern is trying to sabotage American Idol. Rob and Amber have been eliminated from the Amazing Race. And Mel Gibson has had another outburst. One would think you could muster a wee bit of empathy. [/QUOTE] And to add to all that misery, we have George W. Bush and President of the US and Dick Cheney as Vice President. In the words of Jimmy Durante, “Hits a catastroaf!” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/34 "2007-03-27T19:32:40Z")
[QUOTE=Gary Kumquat] Careful, you’ll give them ideas. “using contemptuous language towards the President” could also be held to be Abuse of a Public Animal. [/QUOTE] A dad walking with his child was arrested for telling Cheney that his policies in Iraq are reprehensible. [http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN\_15\_5039230,00.html](http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5039230,00.html) (Thanks to **What Exit** for the link.) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/35 "2007-03-27T20:32:16Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] A dad walking with his child was arrested for telling Cheney that his policies in Iraq are reprehensible. [http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN\_15\_5039230,00.html](http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5039230,00.html) (Thanks to **What Exit** for the link.) [/QUOTE] Holy fucking cow. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/36 "2007-03-27T21:11:04Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Holy fucking cow. [/QUOTE] “Holy fucking cow” is right, although it also implies surprise, and unfortunately, this didn’t really surprise me. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=391205) is the thread on the subject from October last year. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/37 "2007-03-27T21:25:05Z")
I laughed at [this pathetic footnote](http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/a-glimpse-of-five-years-of-hell/2007/03/27/1174761471510.html?page=2) to this whole circus: > [@](#): > > During the earlier session, at which Hicks reserved his plea, the judge warned Major Mori that in future Hicks should not appear in prison-type clothes, but should dress in a suit or “business casual” attire. He’s been rotting in Gitmo for five years; what does the judge expect him to do, run out to Brooks Bros. for suitable attire? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/38 "2007-03-30T16:26:34Z")
Hicks’ plea [has been accepted](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GUANTANAMO_HICKS?SITE=WVEC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT), and the plea agreement allows for a sentence of “up to seven years,” and for Hicks’ return to Australia within 60 days of sentencing. And, just to wrap up the travesty of justice that this whole procedure has exemplified, part of the plea agreement also “requires Hicks to drop any claims of mistreatment by the U.S. government since he was captured in Afghanistan and taken to Guantanamo Bay.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/39 "2007-03-30T16:28:27Z")
Mhendo, do you know whether Australia is obligated, by treaty or whatever, to honor the sentence or the agreement? Maybe when he gets home, he can tell the truth and hopefully be released and fully exhonerated. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567/40 "2007-03-30T16:32:53Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Mhendo, do you know whether Australia is obligated, by treaty or whatever, to honor the sentence or the agreement? Maybe when he gets home, he can tell the truth and hopefully be released and fully exhonerated. [/QUOTE] Why the fuck would he be exhonerated? You may believe that the Gitmo facility is wrong but do you really believe he was just a tourist? And yes the plea deal hinges on him serving the rest of his sentence in Australia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-hicks-us-counsel-may-be-sacked-wtf/394567.md?page=3)