# David Lynch - One of the Triumvirate of American Directors? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 22, 2001, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941 "2001-10-22T20:34:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/21 "2001-10-23T16:49:28Z")
Well, **Sumac!** , you’re certainly entitled to your opinions, but if you’re looking to open up a little bit, John Ford is certainly an excellent place to start. May I make a recommendation? Hold off a little bit on _The Searchers_. One reason why that film is so consistently overlooked is because it is easily dismissed as “a western.” It should not be so. One way to discover how good _The Searchers_ is would be to check out some of Ford’s other, brilliant work. Want to cut to the chase? Do _Stagecoach_, then _The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance_, then _The Searchers_. You may discover that the film has aged amazingly well–some of its distasteful aspects actually seem to function better now than they ever did. Want to branch out from there? Take a look at Akira Kurosawa’s bread-and-butter work. There’s no mistaking the fact that he was a John Ford fan. So are Lucas and Spielberg, and even Ingemar Bergman. Heck, I think it’s about time for me to go back and look at it again. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/22 "2001-10-23T16:52:04Z")
Sumac!, I just realized that the words that you used to descrbe the Coen Bros.'s films–“shallow, fun, commercial, quirky tales devoid of real emotion or thought”–are just the words American critics of the '50s used to level at Hitchcock. 🙂 Ah well, to each his own. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/23 "2001-10-23T17:07:15Z")
Heh. _Truffaut:_ Incidentally, one play on words I rather like is your own saying: “Some films are slices of life. Mine are slices of cake.” _Hitchcock:_ I don’t want to film a “slice of life” because people can get that at home, in the street, or even in front of the movie theater. They don’t have to pay money to see a slice of life… Making a film means, first of all, to tell a story. That story can be an improbable one, but it should never be banal. It must be dramatic and human. What is drama, after all, but life with the dull bits cut out?" –_Hitchcock_, Francois Truffaut, p. 103 ---
**Author:** ![Sumac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Sumac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sumac)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/24 "2001-10-23T17:38:49Z")
Ellen, I’m not always poisonous! Jaws was a really good movie (see!). IMHO Spielberg makes two types of movies: Straightforward Action films (good fun like Indiana Jones) and Pull-on-your-heartstrings-cry-a-river-of-tears films. Schindler’s List was OK, but I can’t even talk about Saving Private Ryan without rolling my eyes. That movie was two of the greatest battle scenes ever shot with nothing but a sinking void in between. Sofa King, I’ve seen three Ford movies (including the very influential Stagecoach) and haven’t warmed up to him yet. Kurosawa’s an interesting example - he was influenced by Ford’s great early American westerns and made The Seven Samurai and Yojimbo which ended up heavily influencing Hollywood and bringing back the American western. Speaking of Truffaut, I loved Jeles & Jim, perhaps my favorite French film! And 400 blows had one of the best endings ever. Wumpus, 🙂 Which Coen film do you think is thought-provoking and emotionally rich??? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/25 "2001-10-23T21:43:23Z")
David Lynch is definitely in my triumvirate of American directors… right alongside Ed Wood Jr. and Hal (“Manos, the Hands of Fate”) Warren. If I ever have the privilege of meeting Mr. Lynch, I’d like to shake his hand and say, “I saw ‘Lost Highway.’ Any chance you could give me my money back?” ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/26 "2001-10-23T22:09:38Z")
Blasphemers! Thou shalt not dis Orson’s directing! I’ll agree that he was a big, fat liar, stole credit for other people’s work in non-directing categories, but after D.W. Griffith’s, he is the numero uno influence in American film. (I like Ford, but not as much as Welles, and that was very uncharacteristic of him to kiss Ford’s ass that much.) I have never seen a Welles film where the direction was less than superb in every shot. Simply dismissing his work after Kane is admitting you haven’t seen Touch of Evil, Othello, Stranger, Lady, etc. Touch of Evil was inspired in every respect except Heston’s acting style, but we have to thank Chuck for insisting Welles direct this one. (As right wing as Heston is, Welles was a left winger, I hear they got along marvelously). There are two great American directors, Welles and Griffiths. There are a lot of wonderful fellas who stand in their shadows, including Hitch, who did a lot of fun films, but none that I could really live without (with the exception of the Grace Kelly scenes in Rear Window.) If Coppola can give us something on the order of Godfather again, I’d like to see it. (But please, not GF IV). ---
**Author:** ![HalberMensch242](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecb155/32.png) [@HalberMensch242](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HalberMensch242)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/27 "2001-10-23T22:21:36Z")
I absolutely adore Lynch, but as someone else said earlier, i’d find it a bit difficult to put him in the top 10 american directors. He’s just too quirky and esoteric to have any sort of consistency, a trait that any superb director must have. Lynch is just too god damn creative and lost in his own thoughts to make one great movie after another. I can’t wait to see Mullholand Drive…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/28 "2001-10-24T00:17:12Z")
I don’t really have anything meaningful to add here; the discussion is rolling along nicely already. I’ll just poke my head in and say I saw _Mulholland Drive_ a couple of days ago. If you’re already a fan of Lynch, you’ll love it; it explores many of the themes of _Lost Highway_ but in a much more coherently illogical way (if that makes sense). If you’re not a fan of Lynch, go see something else. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/29 "2001-10-24T00:50:37Z")
Lynch is always interesting, but most of his films are too incoherent for him to be considered one of the “greats.” Spielberg, for all his influence on the past three decades of American cinema, lacks the depth to make the list, too. He’s a fantastic cinematographer, and has an excellent command of the tools of visual storytelling, but he doesn’t trust his audience enough. He always spoonfeeds his motives and morals to the viewer. Look at the “I tried to earn it” speech at the end of _Saving Private Ryan_, which ruined the end of the film for me, or Tom Hanks’ “Why I’m doing this mission” spiel, which had Oscar nomination clip written all over it. His characters are usually pretty shallow, too. _SPR_ had two characters (Hanks and the translator) and a bunch of red shirts. Until **Wumpus** shows up, I think I’ll have to step up to defend the Coen brothers, who, for my money, are the best American filmmakers today. (Well, maybe after Scorcese) Most striking is their unparralleled ear for dialogue, and especially dialect. _Fargo_ is the best example of this, but also look at _O Brother, Where Art Thou_, or _Raising Arizona_. Of course, good scripts do not a great director make, as has already been pointed out in the posts dismissing Woody Allen. But they are also superlative cinematographers. Some of their shots have an almost iconic power. I’m thinking, in particular, of the aerial shot of Bill Macy in the snowy parking lot in _Fargo_, the scene between Gabriel Byrne and John Turturro in the forest in _Miller’s Crossing_, and John Goodman in the flaming corridor in _Barton Fink_. That the Coen’s lack emotional depth may be a legitimate complaint. At their worst, their films are more concerned with the artifice of filmmaking than the emotional lives of their characters (_Hudsucker Proxy_, for example, or the cipher-like Byrne character in _Miller’s Crossing_) However, in _Fargo_ they showed a capacity for incredible emotional depth. Bill Macy’s pathetic, inept, despairing salesman is one of the best characters ever created for the silver screen, IMO. Hell, even the weather in that movie has a distinct character. Or look at Hi from _Raising Arizona_, or Barton Fink from _Barton Fink_. These are strong, complex characters whose emotions ring very true. While their emotional content may sometimes be lacking, none of their films has ever been less than thought provoking. _Barton Fink_ in particular has lent itself to endless analysis, especially amongst the French. One of the joys of re-watching _The Big Lebowski_ is trying to keep up with the Dude as he unravels the plot, and realizing at last that the movie does indeed make perfect sense. (Anyone who wants to argue that it should be excluded because it is not crystal clear on the first viewing is invited to view _The Maltese Falcon_, or better yet, _Casablanca_, whose plot, when you get right down to it, is pretty damn illogical.) Everytime I re-watch a CB movie, I come away with something new. There are damn few other artists, in any medium, for whom I can say the same thing. So, yeah, I think Joel and Ethan are at least one leg (if not two) of the triumvirate of great American directors. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/30 "2001-10-24T01:08:34Z")
Assuming, of course, that triumvirates, like triangles, have legs. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/31 "2001-10-24T01:56:28Z")
Hee hee. Ok Sumac, you’re back in my good graces. No more eyerolling, though … I’m a delicate flower. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Most striking is their unparralleled ear for dialogue, and especially dialect. Fargo is the best example of this, but also look at O Brother, Where Art Thou, or Raising Arizona. Son, you’ve got a panty on your head. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/32 "2001-10-24T02:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Assuming, of course, that triumvirates, like triangles, have legs. \*\* I may have only gotten a C+ in Geometry, but I know I never was told that triangles have legs. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/33 "2001-10-24T02:23:23Z")
Sure triangles have legs! Two of 'em, and a hypotenuse! ~Ellen (who got a B) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/34 "2001-10-24T02:26:58Z")
Now we see why you got that C. 😉 -Miller, who got the only mathamatical A of his life in Geometry. Suckas. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/35 "2001-10-24T15:20:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Until **Wumpus** shows up, I think I’ll have to step up to defend the Coen brothers, who, for my money, are the best American filmmakers today. (Well, maybe after Scorcese) Most striking is their unparralleled ear for dialogue, and especially dialect. _Fargo_ is the best example of this, but also look at _O Brother, Where Art Thou_, or _Raising Arizona_. Of course, good scripts do not a great director make, as has already been pointed out in the posts dismissing Woody Allen. But they are also superlative cinematographers. Some of their shots have an almost iconic power. I’m thinking, in particular, of the aerial shot of Bill Macy in the snowy parking lot in _Fargo_, the scene between Gabriel Byrne and John Turturro in the forest in _Miller’s Crossing_, and John Goodman in the flaming corridor in _Barton Fink_. > > That the Coen’s lack emotional depth may be a legitimate complaint. At their worst, their films are more concerned with the artifice of filmmaking than the emotional lives of their characters (_Hudsucker Proxy_, for example, or the cipher-like Byrne character in _Miller’s Crossing_) However, in _Fargo_ they showed a capacity for incredible emotional depth. Bill Macy’s pathetic, inept, despairing salesman is one of the best characters ever created for the silver screen, IMO. Hell, even the weather in that movie has a distinct character. Or look at Hi from _Raising Arizona_, or Barton Fink from _Barton Fink_. These are strong, complex characters whose emotions ring very true.\*\* Wow! Excellent defence **Miller**. I’d been thinking of writing one myself, but you summed up my thoughts probably better than I would have. I’d just like to elaborate on your **Fargo** comments. While Macy’s character’s desperation practically vibrates off the screen, the emotional anchor of the movie is Marge Gunderson, the pregnant sheriff. Her smart, sympathetic character provides a much needed counterpoint to all the ugliness surrounding her. One of the best movie characters of the '90s. Having said that, I think that such emotional depth really is a rarity for the Coens. As for Lynch, I’ve been a fan since **Blue Velvet** shook my world and I’m looking forward to **Mulholland Drive** (though I doubt it’ll ever make it here to the boonies). The problem is that he all too often gets wrapped up in his own little bizzaro world. This would be fine except sometimes his weirdness isn’t even internally consistent. The body switching in **Lost Highway** looks like he ripped off the idea from Bunuel and seemed to have little justification in the movie preceding it. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/36 "2001-10-24T16:16:00Z")
In a desperate attempt to stay on-topic, I will note that Lynch and Joel Coen shared the director’s prize at Cannes this year. Those who accuse the Coen Bros. of lacking emotional depth need to listen to the commentary track on the Blood Simple DVD. It seems the lack of emotional depth is all the studios fault–they hacked out the rich backstory involving Todor Ziffkoff and the ceramic camel. Not to mention the Gene Kelly scenes… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/37 "2001-10-24T16:46:53Z")
Sumac, your taste seems to run towards art films - you may not find much made in the studio system that lives up to your expectations for “great films.” For a good look at what a director can do within the studio system, try Fritz Lang’s Rancho Notorious. I’m guessing you either love or hate Terry Gilliam. Personally, I think Robert Rodreguiz is one of the best directors working today - that man understands composition and shot structure like it was his first language. Don’t care for many of his films - his taste runs too violent, but I can appreciate his cinematic eye. And I’ll jump on the “don’t dis the Coen Brother’s” bandwagon. Lynch has moments of brillance, but in my opinion, rarely lives up to his potential. He seems to be trying too hard and purposely setting out to alienate his audience. But then, if you like Bunuel, you might think this is appropriate filmmaking. ---
**Author:** ![Sumac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Sumac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sumac)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/38 "2001-10-25T18:04:44Z")
Hey now, I can enjoy a rip-roaring flick like Indiana Jones or an oddball comedy like This is Spinal Tap, but we’re talking about the best American directors of quality films here! Or at least I am. Dangerosa, I neither love nor hate Gilliam. I’ve dug just about all of his films: Holy Grail, Brazil, Baron Munchausen, the Fisher King & 12 Monkeys. Fear and Loathing is probably my favorite of his. But none are really great movies of impact. I honestly had no idea who Robert Rodreguiz was so I jumped over to [imdb.com](http://imdb.com) and found out. I must say that after seeing Desperado, Four Rooms & Dusk till Dawn & don’t care for him at all. As for the Coen Brothers, I’ve seen 4 of their movies and liked only Fargo. -Raising Arizona was goofy and funny but it wasn’t a good movie by any stretch of the imagination. Everything from the steal-their-baby-because-they-have-so-many-and-won’t-miss-it plot to the terribly affected narration and acting detracted from the fun. The ending was pretty good though. -The Hudsucker Proxy was just plain crap. -The Big Lebowski was almost as bad as Hudsucker. I love Jeff Bridges and Steve Buscemi and I really resented them getting involved in that movie. -I hear Blood Simple is good so I’ll check it out. To give you an idea where I’m coming from, my favorite directors are Herzog, Tarkovsky, Bergman & Kurosawa so no, I obviously don’t care for Hollywood much. Hollywood believes in movies as an exportable commodity; a consumer good to be targeted to a specific demographic, tested on trial audiences, pre-reviewed by stock (or imaginary) critics, merchandized, marketed and finally distributed internationally. It’s the city of the Producer NOT the director – that’s the flaw. Actually I just realized that Mullholland drive even addresses this. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/39 "2001-10-26T01:02:20Z")
I took a Bergman film course in Minnesota in the middle of winter. Ugh! Although Seventh Seal is one of my favorite films. I’m not a huge Kubrick person though. My main film prof and advisor was really big on Scorsese, and (like Rodreguiz) I understand his brillance, though I don’t care for his films. Kirosawa was a consistantly great director (although watching Ran is like beating yourself over the head for three hours). Herzog - I’m trying to think what I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941/40 "2001-10-26T01:51:40Z")
Raising Arizona: The Coens love dialect, which can come over as affect. Sometimes it works (Fargo) sometimes it doesn’t (Jennifer Jason Lee in Hudsucker) For me, Nick Cage’s oddly detached naration worked. Hell, it made the movie. Difference of taste, I guess. Hudsucker Proxy: I really can’t defend this movie. Nice sets, though. The Big Lebowski: Far and away their most underappreciated movie. It’s a character study: the plot is secondary. Repeated viewings are a must. Also a nice tribute to the classic noir films. Blood Simple: Actually, this is the only Coen film I haven’t seen yet. Terry Gilliam: In my book, Gilliam is an almost-great. I can’t put my finger on it, but most of his films don’t quite gel. Entertaining, even thought provoking, yet still unsatisfying in some way. I need to think about this a little more, but I think he has trouble bringing the energy that the ideas in his films demand. _The Adventures of Baron Munchausen_, for example, ought to have been electrifying, but was instead merely interesting. That said, _Brazil_ was damned close to a perfect film (directors cut, not the butchered studio cut). _Time Bandits_ is my favorite, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-lynch-one-of-the-triumvirate-of-american-directors/88941.md?page=3)