# David Mamet creates a disgusting lie about President Kennedy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620 "2008-03-17T04:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/1 "2008-03-17T04:35:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Bush got us into Iraq, JFK into Vietnam. Bush stole the election in Florida; Kennedy stole his in Chicago. Bush outed a CIA agent; Kennedy left hundreds of them to die in the surf at the Bay of Pigs. Bush lied about his military service; Kennedy accepted a Pulitzer Prize for a book written by Ted Sorenson. Bush was in bed with the Saudis, Kennedy with the Mafia. Oh. Most of the stuff he lists here is either inaccurate or a gross oversimplification, but the part about President Kennedy and the Bay of Pigs is a disgusting lie that no reasonable person could possibly think is even vaguely true. There were not hundreds of CIA agents in the surf at the Bay of Pigs to be killed; there were not even 10 CIA agents in the surf to be killed; there were not even five CIA agents in the surf to be killed. Mamet writes about how his rabbi discussed the need to address the quality of political discourse, and then Mamet spreads this disgusting lie. That is not going to help political discourse. Fuck you Mamet. You haven’t anything decent in 20 years anyways. [http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0811,374064,374064,1.html/full](http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0811,374064,374064,1.html/full) ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/2 "2008-03-17T04:49:23Z")
Yeah, it was just one CIA agent, Thomas Willard Ray, so it’s ok. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/3 "2008-03-17T04:53:33Z")
And for the record, I believe it’s widely acknowledged that Kennedy and Nixon were both trying to cheat in 1960. And didn’t Vietnam begin during Truman? ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/4 "2008-03-17T04:59:25Z")
And get this – the hundreds that did die were only Cubans to whom we’d promised air support but Kennedy chickened out because he wanted “plausible deniability.” ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/5 "2008-03-17T05:15:50Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Fuck you Mamet. You haven’t anything decent in 20 years anyways. [/QUOTE] _Glengarry Glen Ross_ (movie) - 1992 \*Oleanna \*(play) - 1992 _Wag the Dog_ (movie) - 1997 \*The Spanish Prisoner \*(movie) - 1997 \*State and Main \*(movie) - 2000 _The Unit_ (tv show) - 2006-present Plus many others that are arguably “decent” but not outstanding. What have you ever done? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/6 "2008-03-17T05:16:02Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot] And didn’t Vietnam begin during Truman? [/QUOTE] We either got in after Dien Bien Phu in '54 under Ike, or after the Gulf on Tonkin incident in '64 under LBJ, depending on how you look at it and who you ask. I can’t think off the top of my head how JFK “got us into” Viet Nam but I’m sure there are legitimate arguments out there. (One of the results of not declaring war is that there’s gonna be some disagreement on when the damn thing started.) ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/7 "2008-03-17T05:19:47Z")
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer] _Glengarry Glen Ross_ (movie) - 1992 \*Oleanna \*(play) - 1992 _Wag the Dog_ (movie) - 1997 \*The Spanish Prisoner \*(movie) - 1997 \*State and Main \*(movie) - 2000 _The Unit_ (tv show) - 2006-present Plus many others that are arguably “decent” but not outstanding. What have you ever done? [/QUOTE] I meant to write 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/8 "2008-03-17T05:26:08Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I meant to write 10 years. [/QUOTE] The play “November” that just came out this year is really funny. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/9 "2008-03-17T05:27:01Z")
Several of Mamet’s accusations against Kennedy are lies, not just one of them. Kennedy had enough electoral votes to beat Nixon even if Nixon had taken Illinois, so even if Kennedy had any part of voter fraud in Chicago, (for which there is no evidence), and even if any claimed voter fraud in Chicago was substantial enough to throw the election, (a point never established), Kennedy still would not have “stolen” the election. Ike got us into Vietnam. Kennedy just stayed the course, (probably mishandling rising opposition to Ike’s chosen puppet as the corruption of the Diem brothers became more obvious, leading to unrest in the South, but not “getting us in”), and Johnson did the actual escalation of U.S. intervention. Kennedy also inherited the Bay of Pigs from Ike and, while a better response would have been to cancel the attack, his decision to not turn the invasion into a trumped up intervention (_a la_ Iraq) or a needless civil war (_a la_ Nicaragua) was probably the correct one. (At least Kennedy was literate enough that the idea that he had written a book was not unbelievably far fetched.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/10 "2008-03-17T05:36:21Z")
The “in bed with the Mafia” stuff is pretty weak. Sure, the Mafia was pleased to have a fellow Catholic in the WH, but the only way you get “in bed” with a politician is by giving him money, and lots of it. The _goombahs_ would rather have set thier pubes on fire than part with a dime. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/11 "2008-03-17T05:40:41Z")
**Elucidator** Umm sorry you fail. His Dad was a gangster. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/12 "2008-03-17T05:48:28Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I meant to write 10 years. [/QUOTE] Well, as long as you’re backpedaling, did you mean to write a past participle as well? I’ll supply one: “eaten.” Let’s try this again. > [@](#): > > Fuck you Mamet. You haven’t [eaten] anything decent in [del]20[/del] **10** years anyways. _A nice rare steak with marsala reduction_ - 1999 \*Three excellent beef tacos \*- 2001 \*Steamed broccoli \*- 2001 _Egg McMuffin_ -2005 _A couple of really fresh peaches_ - 2006 \*Vanilla-bourbon gelato \* - 2008 Plus many others that could certainly be considered “decent,” but perhaps not outstanding. On a serious note, I would recommend people read the article. The statement is far less egregious in context. He’s not trying to give a history lesson: he’s just saying that history can be interpreted differently based on the light in which you view it. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/13 "2008-03-17T05:53:37Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Elucidator Umm sorry you fail. His Dad was a gangster. [/QUOTE] Sure he was, and my moonshinin’ Uncle Aaron was the Al Capone of the Brazos. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/14 "2008-03-17T05:54:27Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Sure he was, and my moonshinin’ Uncle Aaron was the Al Capone of the Brazos. [/QUOTE] Are you like the only person in the world that is unaware that Joe Kennedy made his fortune as a bootlegger? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/15 "2008-03-17T05:54:56Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] **Elucidator** Umm sorry you fail. His Dad was a gangster. [/QUOTE] His dad was a bootlegger, but he wasn’t in the _Mafia_ which was the claim (he was Irish). Also, just because his dad was a “gangster” doesn’t mean that Jack was. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/16 "2008-03-17T05:56:47Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Are you like the only person in the world that is unaware that Joe Kennedy made his fortune as a bootlegger? [/QUOTE] You are conflating bootleggers with the Mafia, as you would understand if you read **'lucy’s** post again. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/17 "2008-03-17T05:58:57Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Several of Mamet’s accusations against Kennedy are lies, not just one of them. [/QUOTE] Agreed, but aren’t the accusations against Bush hyperbolic (read as: lies) as well? Has there been some absolute proof presented in Bush stealing the election in Florida, outing a CIA agent, lying about military service, or being in bed with the Saudis that happened outside of Olbermann’s wet dreams? (I’ll give you Iraq, because we know Congress had nothing to do with that at all!) Hyperbole to make a point, really. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/18 "2008-03-17T05:59:09Z")
Ahh, that’s ok, makes a better story anyway. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/19 "2008-03-17T06:04:23Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] His dad was a bootlegger, but he wasn’t in the _Mafia_ which was the claim (he was Irish). Also, just because his dad was a “gangster” doesn’t mean that Jack was. [/QUOTE] No one said he was in the Mafia, they said he had mafia connections. The idea that a bootlegger wouldn’t be dealing with the Mafia is hopelessly naive. Also, a lot of the distro that was occurring in that era was controlled by the Jews. I don’t remember the name of the guy but a Jewish businessman as soon as prohibition went into effect had a couple of boats running regularly between Long Island and Scotland. I think it would be naive to believe that Jack didn’t know some gangsters. One doesn’t rise to power like that without a diversified portfolio if ya know whuddImean. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620/20 "2008-03-17T06:06:45Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] His dad was a bootlegger, but he wasn’t in the _Mafia_ which was the claim (he was Irish). Also, just because his dad was a “gangster” doesn’t mean that Jack was. [/QUOTE] Joe was connected with Meyer Lansky, and JFK with Sam Giancana, but yes, I do agree that there’s no way the elder Kennedy was IN the mafia, and there’s no way the younger one was in bed with them…maybe in bed with Marilyn, sure.. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/david-mamet-creates-a-disgusting-lie-about-president-kennedy/441620.md?page=2)